Quality Thinking - Warning: Long Post Ahead

by Viviane 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kepler
    kepler

    This is a fairly rational thread and I appreciate the logician's perspective. But I can't help thinking back to some musing of some decades back inspired by reading Goethe's Faust and Faust struggling to translate to German the Greek of the Gospel of John - It struck me that "in the beginning there was Logos", could just as easily have been "in the beginning there was Code..."

    Small wonder that the darkness grasped it not.

    But the notion that the Bible/Biblia which is books or the Book is inerrant - It is a mainstay of both Protestant and JW thought ( assuming they are separable). Truly it says what it says in some fashion, but you need only go two chapters into Genesis before it starts contradicting itself. If not errors, then these contradictions would at least stop execution if it is treated as an entirety of an executable program.

    Moreover, the conclusions drawn are base can even be based on the sequencing of the books, post event "predictions" and adherence to Reformation era chapter and verse conventions. Issues that come up again in the first two chapters of Genesis. Generally, it is acknowledged that the system was off by about four verses ( Daniel shifts from chapter 5 to 6 perhaps in mid sentence).

    Should it be thrown out? Not exactly. It serves as one of the templates for whatever comes next in western society. Not all the information in the text has been extracted or fully understood. The inerrancy arguments over the centuries have usually distilled down into the text means exactly what this institution or spokesperson for the divine says it means.

    ...Confirmation bias of my own, I guess.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Who advocates challenging every opinion?

    I do!

    Wouldn't have it any other way.

    An opinion worth sharing is an opinion worth challenging!!!

  • JW_Rogue
    JW_Rogue
    I do!
    Wouldn't have it any other way.
    An opinion worth sharing is an opinion worth challenging!!!

    SEE! LOL Some people enjoy debating I find that I don't really enjoy it so I leave those subjects to others. Although I sometimes like to watch them go at it.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    My company has many female pilots, and a good number of them are captains, some younger but far senior to me in tenure. I haven't flown with them all, but the vast majority of the ones I've had the pleasure of working with have shown their reasoning, judgment, and skill to be the match of any man's, including my own.

    And how long will it take Watchtower to figure out that women are already teaching among JWs, only not in a Watchtower appointed capacity of "elder"?

    And how long will it take Watchtower to figure out that sitting on a judicial committee to evaluate evidence and repentance is not "teaching"?

    And how long will it take Watchtower to recognize the context of historical positions taken by biblical characters/authors apart from underlying values so that JW women are no longer kept from performing valuable work inside the organization that so far they've been kept from?

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    SEE! LOL Some people enjoy debating I find that I don't really enjoy it so I leave those subjects to others. Although I sometimes like to watch them go at it.

    You might read me wrong, JW_Rogue.

    Though I think every opinion worth sharing is an opinion worth challenging, I neither have the time nor the inclination to challenge every opinion presented.

  • JW_Rogue
    JW_Rogue
    Marvin, that was tongue in cheek nothing personal, carry on.
  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin, that was tongue in cheek nothing personal, carry on.

    I understood that, JW_Rogue.

    Mainly I replied as I did for sake of clarity so other readers didn't get a wrong idea.

  • troubled mind
    troubled mind
    I really feel left behind after reading this thread . I have so much to learn ! Where do I start ? and remember I need it to be basics first ....I was indoctrinated for 44 long years ,the last ten have been decompression ,now I need to start again.
  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Marvin: The point is that a person can have a passion for a subject without having a passion for a particular finding based on research of that subject.

    I understand and agree in theory. The problem again is that in practice we are dealing with humans. And the fact is that, with us, it just ain't that easy because of the way we are made.

    Have you read Mistakes Were Made referenced above (see page 4)? I think you'd find it a fascinating and informative read.

  • andrekish
    andrekish

    Hello Vivanne. Many thanks, truly, for responding.

    In an earlier post at this topic I used the concept of 'seeing' a ghost as this is generally an entirely subjective thing to experience and is virtually impossible to prove or to accurately analyse. It relies to a great deal on confirmation bias and looking at the cold data through emotive and often wishful eyes. There obviously are, methodically or logically, many possibilities for 'seeing' them,.

    Whenever I have seen images in my head as described they have always been accompanied by the 'sensation'/'mental cenrtainty that the events would occur. On each and every occassion that this has happened the image I have seen has always and invariably occurred, without any failure to do so, as opposed to a body of images, some of which didn't occur.

    My parents came to the UK from a village in Hungary called Csepa and my mother was of Roma descent. In the UK Roma of often associated with foretune telling, etc, and also being charatans, who many are. I could, if I chose, attribute the concept of 'foresight' due to Roma lineage and this would be total confirmation bias. However, what happends to me is because it happens and as an incidental thing, my mother was Roma and this is probably completely co-incidental and simply a local cultural romantic gypsy concept.

    One example of the specifics of what happens to me personally was in February 1989 whilst sitting in a pub with friends. I felt like my stomach was be compressed and saw an image of a man on top of a wall hitting it at the wall at his feet with a large sledge hammer. I had the exact immpression that this was the Berlin Wall and I stated to my friends that the Berlin Wall would be coming down that year. My friends said I was crazy and laughed at me.

    In March 1989 the first of the troubles with the countries of the Soviet Union began. By November 1989 the Berlin Wall came down. Then on the news I saw a man with a sledge hammer standing on top of the now redundant Berlin Wall hitting the walll he stood on.

    A more recent and potentially problematic example of this was whilst attending an engagement party for my brother in law, six years ago. When I saw his fiancee I had the same stomach sensations and saw an image of her holding a baby. I told her, my brother-in-law, and the entire immediate family who told me to shut up because she was infertile, as all her consultants had agreed. Thus problems can arise when something like this happens and it is entirely at odds with the expectations of people. Ten months later her daughter was born.

    These are just two of many examples of this phenomena that I have personally witnessed among the possibly hundreds. Based on all of these I subjectively would be rather foolish to ignore the possibility that the old guys were seeing what they said. It cannot in anyway prove the old prophecies and is not intended to do so. Many years ago I was excommunicated from the Mormon church once I told them of these events. They said I was possessed, which if they are correct, means that two minds can occupy the same airspace and brain, which is an entirely different thing I had to analyse at the time. I still haven't been able to draw solid conclusions on that one yet.

    Rather than this I am enquiring of everyone with a clear thinking mind whether it would be foolish of me, who witnesses these things, to rule out entirely what the old guys. potential prophets if I may use the term, said. Using the term 'old guys' I mean them no disrespect but place them in history.

    As a personal opinion I think many of Jehovah's Witnesses, with this full title used so as not to be disrespectful to them, are a bit wide of the mark and are way too dogmatic and domineering in their approach. The concept of disfollowshipping does not rest easy on many shoulders of the folks who post at this site. Nor does the concept of me sacrificing the lives of children to show that I believe in God. They are not, and will never be, a pawn in any game of religious devotion I might choose to follow. Thus, my kids would always be given life saving blood every time the need arose.

    One of the reasons that I have asked for your opinion, Vivanne, and any other person who might be kind enough to read and respond to this, is that you are clearly unconvinced by the accounts of visions and prophets, etc, and thus may be able to offer peer review with a critical set of eyes. If anyone can help me analyse these events objectively and offer suggestions not yet considered by me it will be invaluable, so many, many thanks to all.

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