Reading COC - ????

by pettygrudger 17 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  pettygrudger

  I'm only to page 130 - so perhaps my questions will be answered further down the line, but I don't want to wait to get to the end of the book!!!

  Why were neither N. Knorr nor F.Franz reproved for their obvious vocal dissension with the Governing Body? If any R/F member had acted the way they had, they would have been df'd. This went above "murmerings". Also, the GB obviously did little up until then but decide which actions (per case basis almost it would seem) were disfellowshipping actions. Was apostacy not considered a df'ing offense until later? Because, from what I've come to read so far, it appears both could have easily been construed as "apostates".
• 

  core

  Knorr and Franz had no one to check them and any thoughts / commewnts they made were not judged by others - For most of Knorrs term he WAS the GB so no one would check him anyway
• 

  Mary

  It boiled down to: who will watch the watchers?

  It would have been highly unlikely that anyone would have openly questioned either of these guys because unofficially, they were viewed at the top of the F&DSC. Anyone questioning them would have been subjected to the ol' example of those that "murmured against Moses". That's how frigging arrogant they were.

  And don't forget for a moment that when push came to shove, Fredrick Franz stood there and watched his nephew, his own flesh and blood, be booted out of the organization without a moments hesitation, because he knew through study that alot of what they, the Governing Body, in particular, Fredrick Franz himself were teaching, was simply not true. I shudder at the display of such loyalty to a false prophet......
• 

  JT

  reason is simple those two guys ran the organization - While Freddy was intitled to be the President , he didn't want it and anyone who knew Franz will tell you Freddy was not really interested and that is why Knorr was president and freddy was not,

  Freddy didn't like the Biz aspect of the org- the Corporate side, instead he loved the Doctrinal side

  he loved to write and that is why almost single handed he is responisble for almost all the prophetic type dogmas, one of his favorite was the ANTI-TYPICAL TYPE

  he lived each day to write about Moses "Left shoe" was the anti-type for the door to door minstry and trash like that

  and for that reason ask any of us who go back a few years in the org, the district conventions were exciting when i was a kid for we got NEW FREDDY LIGHT - now jw only get cut and paste articles

  we used to dig deep trying to find some DEEP POINT AS WE USED TO SAY

  when i was at bethel there was a bethel elder who used to be in the factory with us and his phrase was:

  "This is the first time the slave has commented on this issue or put this IN PRINT"

  AS I look back as jw we were just Damn Crazy to keep on buying that bogus stuff year in and year out
• 

  dannyboy

  You could sum up the reasons for this as: RHIP (Rank Has Its Privleges). In any large organization there is a lot that the head folks can get away with that would be "hangin" offenses for those less lofty. So much for "let's all be together on these things, brothers", eh? I never was a Bethelite, but some who were/are have told me that the Bethel Family sometimes becomes aware of these "power struggles", (e.g.: There was quite a discussion around whether or not to release the Society's publications on CD years back).

  I found the whole description of the section you're commenting on just mind-boggling....here you have the magazines saying the Governing Body is running everything, but behind the scenes the EXACT OPPOSITE is true. How far removed from the real world they were/are.

  A parallel situation (of not speaking with one voice) is described in the COC book involving Albert Schroeder who was putting forth an "independent" explanation of a particular scripture while in Europe. According to COC, the Governing Body took this up with him, and basically just agreed not to teach this "new" idea he had come up with, without sanctioning him in any way.

  For a lowly local elder to say anything even remotely close to either of these two situations (the one you mention and the one above) would usually have the entire body of elders down on him in a New York minute, with severe sanctions, unless he could convince them that he innocently mispoke, was having a brain seizure, etc. etc. at the time :)) At first blush, this intense feeling of "we've all got to be saying the same thing" sounds great, "we're all unified", etc. etc. the awful truth is that such stymies fresh thinking, it blocks reasonableness (in favor of rigid organizational rules), and sadly enough of all, stands in the way of common sense.

  I'm now re-reading COC, and I'm getting a lot more out of this time than I did while I was "freshly" out of the dubs.

  Hope you continue reading and finish the book, then read Ray Franz's next: "In Search of Christian Freedom"

  Best wishes,

  ---Dan
• 

  pettygrudger

  Your comments are all welcome - but I still can't help but wonder.

  Given the history of the board, especially under Rutherford's presidency - I find it odd that the GB wouldn't have found Franz & Knorr's public "talks" (i.e. the Bethel dinners) to be a direct threat towards usurping their authority. Since they had the vast responsibility for deciding "disfellowshipping offenses", wouldn't they have wanted Knorr & Franz put in check so to speak?

  I also find it amazing the material that Knorr & Franz were able to put into Watchtowers that wasn't allowed in public talks.....didn't the GB read the material that was presented to the r/f AFTER it had been published to know that this type of thing was going on?
• 

  dannyboy

  I might be missing your point here, but what you're calling attention is illustrative of the "awe" if you will, of how Knorr and Freddy Franz were held by not only the Directors, but later the Governing Body (at least at first). And, isn't this ridiculous situation one of very things that COC is calling attention to?

  I've personally heard both Knorr and Franz speak, both at conventions, and in much more intimate settings, and the overall feeling was like (at least in Franz's case) the Oracle himself speaking (as COC mentions).

  You mention the "history of the board".....I assume you mean the board of directors? Wasn't their history, as explained in COC one of being subservient to Knorr?? That met and discussed only what he decided was fitting? My picture of the Governing Body ***today*** is different, but isn't this the picture COC presents? And COC sets this forth in the context of showing how ridiculous the situation was, again, because the average JW, reading the magazines (particularly an article like "A Governing Body as Different From A Corporation" would have gotten a picture entirely OPPOSITE of what was taking place.

  But, yes, I agree that it seems strange that nobody stood up, so to speak and said "Hey, what in the heck are you guys trying to pull, here, anyway???? "

  ---Dan
• 

  pettygrudger

  I'm not questioning Ray Franz Danny - I'm sorry if my questions appear this way.

  It just really amazes me how little the GB knew of what was really going on, how little they had to do with "imparting spiritual food" and how unable/uninterested they were in protecting their best interests - especially after the Rutherford era.
• 

  dannyboy

  I'm not questioning Ray Franz Danny - I'm sorry if my questions appear this way.

  Oh no, didn't get the impression at all. Guess I'm not communicating as well as I'd like. Sorry.

  I think we're on the same wavelength, actually

  Sounds like you're continuing to read COC with eager interest and an inquisitive mind. Do you have the "other" book?? ("In Search of Christian Freedom")

  ---Dan
• 

  dannyboy

  Addenum:

  When I re-read my post again just now, I see I asked a lot of questions......might be coming accross in an accusing or SHOUTING manner..... Not my intention at all, just my style of thinking out loud if you will.

  ---Dan