"Cheers" question

by reubenfine 14 Replies latest jw friends

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  reubenfine

  Does anybody remember the logic behind why it was wrong to make toasts with drink and say "cheers"? What was up with that, anyway???
• 

  JH

  I think it had something to do with scaring demons away when opening one's mouth to drink. The gling the glasses make when hitting each other was to scare demons from trying to enter one's mouth and entering the body.
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  Hmmm

  I think it's because anything that sounds like fun is anathema to the GB.

  "But, Fred, I've done the research and I can't find any pagan origins to that particular custom."

  "Origins schmorigins! They're saying 'cheers!' Do we need any more proof that it's bad? Just write up a Questions From Readers and throw in 'pagan', 'worldly', and 'bible-trained conscience'--nobody will look up the references, anyway."

  Hmmm
• 

  no one

  Found this in WT 1/1/68 'Questions from Readers':

  Is it proper for Christians to "drink a toast" when they get together?M. D., U.S.A.

  In some lands, when acquaintances are about to part, they have a parting drink of some alcoholic beverage, with glasses raised and touched together and accompanied with an expression of to your health or something similar. At wedding receptions frequently a toast is similarly offered to the health and happiness of the newlyweds. Understandably, some have questioned whether it would be Scripturally proper for Christians to share in such toasts.

  Certainly there is nothing wrong with a Christians wishing a friend happiness and good health. Nor would it be improper to do so as a group. The spiritually older men in the first century concluded a letter to the Christian congregations with an expression meaning, essentially, "Good health to you!"Acts 15:29.

  But is that all there is to "toasting"? Why do the toasters raise their glasses, or lift their mugs and clink them together? Is it in imitation of some custom? Note what The Encyclopdia Britannica, 11

  th Ed., Volume 13, page 121, says:

  "The custom of drinking health to the living is most probably derived from the ancient religious rite of drinking to the gods and the dead. The Greeks and Romans at meals poured out libations to their gods, and at ceremonial banquets drank to them and to the dead." Then, after showing how such pagan customs survived among Scandinavian and Teutonic peoples, this reference work adds: "Intimately associated with these quasi-sacrificial drinking customs must have been the drinking to the health of living men."

  When most people join in a "toast" they probably do not imagine that they might be copying the custom of lifting up a libation or liquid sacrifice to pagan gods, yet that could be so. Without question, a faithful Christian would not share in an actual pagan sacrifice, realizing that "you cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons." (1 Cor. 10:21) A mature Christian would also avoid even imitating false religious rituals. This spiritually mature course would please Jehovah. Remember, God specifically warned the Israelites against copying religious practices of the pagan nations round about them.Lev. 19:27; 21:5.

  If a Christian is going to make a request for divine blessing on another, then an appropriate way to do that is through heartfelt prayer to God, not by following traditions based on pagan worship that Jehovah abhors.Phil. 1:9; 2 Cor. 1:11.

  Customs and traditions abound all over the earth. If a mature Christian knew that a particular one was directly based on false religion, obviously he would avoid it. But not all customs are objectionable. Some may simply be local practices or etiquette without a false religious origin, such as greeting by shaking hands or bowing. (Gen. 23:7) Each individual can consider what he knows about a particular custom and his own motive with regard to it. Just why is he doing it? He might also ask himself, Will doing this stumble others, or will people in the community link my actions with false religion? (1 Cor. 10:32, 33) No one else can serve as the conscience for a particular Christian; hence each one can think the matter over and make a decision so as to have a clear conscience.Acts 23:1; 2 Cor. 1:12.

  Another Queastions from Readers about toasting in WT 5/15/52
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  freedom96

  If we research anything hard enough, many times things go back to the "pagen" times. There are reasons dated way back for marriage rings, holidays, etc. If the purpose is to stay away from anything that had ties to "pagen" days, there would not be too much that we could do.

  I seriously doubt that most people will do things based on practices thousands of years ago. We need to be realistic, and consider what the meaning has for today. In my opinion, people will toast as a formality, or just having a good time. They are not thinking to themselves, lets toast to rid ourselves of evil spirits.
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  Englishman

  Ha ha! I have great fun with this one in my local pub. Whenever I encounter a JW in there, I can normally wangle a pint or two, however, getting them to toast to someones health is nigh on impossible. Especially their own health.

  I've also noticed that they now have what appears to be a coping technique so's not to appear overly moronic by refusing to accept a toast to their own health. When you call "Cheers!" they respond with "Thank you!"

  This is how it normally goes:

  ME: "Hello Mr Rubby Dubby, buy me a pint and I'll overlook your peculiar beliefs".

  JW: "Uh?"

  ME: "2 Pints of Stella please landlord".

  JW ."Er, oh er, oh very well".

  ME: "Cheers!"

  JW: "Ah. Oh. Umm er..."

  ME: "Your good health!"

  JW: "Thank you!"

  Now, he has to talk to me until such time as he finishes his pint, boy can those boys sink 'em fast!

  Englishman.
• 

  Matty

  I think I'm here under false pretences! A bit like when I clicked on Kelsey007 "Can't get enough of Bush?" thread!

  Well, I'm just gonna post some pics of one of my favourite shows anyway!

  Sorry about that. As you were...
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  reubenfine

  Wow, Matty. You actually watch a show that has a name with pagan tradition origins, where they actually drink and toast, too? I'm reporting you for your own good!!
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  Kenneson

  "When most people join in a 'toast' they probably do not imagine that they might be copying the custom of lifting up a libation or liquid sacrifice to pagan gods, yet that could be so."

  And had not the W.T. so enlightened JW's they would continue to be among those "most people." Yet, after going through all that explanation , it's still left up to our consciences. But now that we have informed consciences, it might be hard to clink those glasses to good health. Then, on the other hand, maybe not.
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  hotspur

  How amazing ... even the Encylopdaedia Britannica uses the term 'probably'

  Evidently they've never heard of straining out gnats whilst swallowing camels.

  And I really detest the use of this phrase ~" A mature Christian would..." as if: you don't follow our words you show yourself to be immature!