144,000 and Rulership

by artful 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  onacruse

  Artful, ditto to what jgnat said. I look forward to more thought-provoking questions from you!

  Craig
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  artful

  Craig and jgnat: thank you for your kind words.

  Lefty/Yardif (or whoever your are): I'm afraid if that is all you have to PROVE the connection....I'm less than convinced. Thanks for trying though...woof, woof, LOL!
  Cheers
  Artful
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  Lefty

  Fartful,

  Just as I figured it would, it went right over the top of your wee little head. You haven't the comprehension abilities of a dead ape, and on top of that you are infected with that mind disease I talked about earlier (biasitus). No one would actually have expected you to agree with the point I made, since afterall you ARE here first of all as an opposer to the WTS.

  Yadirf

  .

  Edited by - Lefty on 23 December 2002 1:34:23
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  artful

  Friday: I do appreciate the time you spent in explaining your point of view. I also comprehend the argument you present. The reasons that I don't think it very strong are as follows:
  1. Not having the mark of the beast doesn't necessarily equate to being rulers with Christ. During the outpouring of God's wrath on those who have the mark of the beast (Rev 14:11, Rev 16:2) by your own WTS theology, the Great Crowd on Earth during this outpouring would certainly not have the mark of the beast, yet they would also certainly not be rulers with Christ.

  2. Having the name of Jesus and God on your forehead does not make one a ruler with Christ. By WTS definition (Revelation book pg. 200) these ones are considered "Jehovah's witnesses, his slaves", a name certainly shared by the Great Crowd of non-rulers - who if they don't have the mark of the beast would assumedly have the mark of Jehovah to identify them as "Jehovah's Witnesses" thereby avoiding God's wrath. WTS uses the analogy of JWs being a "marked" people continually.

  Therefore, the fact that the 144K are described as having the name of Jesus and God written on their foreheads, and Christ's co-rulers are said not have the name of the beast on their forehead still doesn't make them the same people.

  Cheers
  Artful
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  Yadirf

  2. Having the name of Jesus and God on your forehead does not make one a ruler with Christ. By WTS definition (Revelation book pg. 200) these ones are considered "Jehovah's witnesses, his slaves", a name certainly shared by the Great Crowd of non-rulers - who if they don't have the mark of the beast would assumedly have the mark of Jehovah to identify them as "Jehovah's Witnesses" thereby avoiding God's wrath. WTS uses the analogy of JWs being a "marked" people continually.

  For a moment, forget "WTS definition" and "WTS analogy". Show me a scripture that shows that the "Great Crowd" has God's name written upon their foreheads. Show me a scripture that shows that anyone other than Jesus and the 144,000 have God's name written upon their foreheads. Show me a scripture that even talks about the name of the wild beast not being upon people's foreheads other than those who will obviously rule with Christ. (Re 20:4) In view of the fact that there are no such references to be found, it must be concluded that those rulers who had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads (Re 20:4) are none other than the ones who had God's name written on their foreheads, namely the 144,000 (Re 14:1).

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  artful

  Friday: I understand your reasoning that "those rulers who had not receivedthemark ofthe beast on their foreheads (Re 20:4) are none other than theones who hadGod's name written on their foreheads, namely the 144,000(Re 14:1)."

  However, by the same token I could reason that: "those of the Great Crowd who had also not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads (since they did not receive God's wrath - see point #1 in my previous post which you ignored)may also have God's name written on their foreheads."

  You are correct in saying that there are no specific scriptures that actually state that the GC have the mark of Jehovah, but, by reasoning it out, it would seem that you are either "marked" as being with God or with the beast; there is no scripture to indicate any "middle gound". Besides, just having the mark of Jehovah does not (by scripture) automatically equate to being a ruler with Christ.

  Most importantly, my point here was not to demonstrate that the Great Crowd have the name of Jehovah stamped on their foreheads. Rather, my point here is to try to make a connection between the 144K and rulership. My contention is still that there is not enough "plainly stated" scriptural evidence to support this claim. To use your own reasoning: Show me a scripture that plainly states that the 144K are the ones given "authority to rule" in Rev 20:4. Without this, the conclusion you make to is quite a leap!

  Cheers
  Artful

  Edited by - artful on 24 December 2002 11:22:14

  Edited by - ARTFUL on 24 December 2002 11:23:39
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  LittleToe

  Bona Dea:
  Unless I missed it, no-one addressed your question.
  JW's teach that the heavemly resurrection began in 1914, after Christ was installed as king.
  That isn't a hard teaching to debunk...

  Good post, artful.