by Farkel 17 Replies latest jw friends
Farkel you just simplified the concept of the yin/yang for those who were uaware of it. . . .
thanks
by the way if you enjoy Anne Rice read Memnoch the Devil
the concept of how god needs the devil in order to get better and improve is illustrated in a very fascinating way. . . .
it starts out with them in a cafe having a discussion when Lestat notices them a few tables away. . . .
CHUCK
Thanks to all for the, er, "good" comments!
fodeja,
: I see no reason to postulate that concepts or ideas are "beings", existing in their own world. I also don't think the bible postulates that god created such a "concept of good" together with his first creation. God created a universe (release 1.0) some time ago, but the bible describes that universe later: from the viewpoint and within the extended explanatory framework of its successor, universe 2.0. The notion of good needn't have existed in universe 1.0, according to this model _and_ the bible (IIRC - I haven't wasted my time on bible reading for a long time).
We are dealing with different models here. Yours is more one of humanism, and I certainly have no problems with humanism. Mine was dealing with the Bible model. Since neither of us hold much stock in the Bible we would have to agree that I was only using that model to demonstrate my argument. Gen 1:4 states that God pronounced light as being "good" after it was created. Even though these words were written thousands (billions, actually) of years after the event, they still contradict your "Version II Universe" assertion.
dark clouds:
: Farkel you just simplified the concept of the yin/yang for those who were uaware of it. . . .
Right. And that concept makes infinitely more sense than the Bible model.
willy_think:
: if all was good at first, then when the "apple" was eaten it was not the knowlige of good and and evil. but the creation of god and evil. only we know it was the knowing that came into being,
and not the power of good and evil that came to be.
Gen 2:17 contradicts you.
Trevor,
: I avoid using the words good, evil or bad. This is because to quote "Nothing is either good or bad, it is thinking that makes it so."
Me too. I prefer the expressions, "does work" or "does not work." They remove the right/wrong judgement and give fluidity to decisions. However we also both know that dubs live in a black/white world and have their own absolute concepts about what is "good" and what is "evil."
"Good" - selling Watchtowers
"Evil" - not buying Watchtowers from those selling Watchtowers
In short, dubs have a simple model for life and salvation. The only problem is, it is based upon the religious equivalent of "vaporware."
Farkel
: Gen 1:4 states that God pronounced light as being "good" after it was created. Even though these words were written thousands (billions, actually) of years after the event, they still contradict your "Version II Universe" assertion.
I stand corrected, Farkel, I have really neglected my bible studies. On the other hand, since god is omniscient and knows everything that will happen in the future, he could have known and used the concepts introduced later on and, uh...wait, doesn't that contradict free will? I mean, if there is such a thing as free will, how can he be sure if and how evil is introduced? And if god can transfer his knowledge from the future into the past, isn't he "tainting" the past by introducing that nasty two-sided notion of "good" from the, er, bad future? Damn.
f.
p.s.: http://www.dmatech.com/~swmud/help/miscell/time_travel.html :-)
My understanding of Taoism does not apply yang and yin to good and evil. It seems to me good and evil in the sense you guys are describing it is pretty much a western concept. Has anyone actually read anything that correlates it that way?
I agree with farkel here. Good can't exist without evil. In the very beginning of human existance God created Adam (according to the Bible), then He created Eve. Then He laid down the law - "Do whatever you choose, anything and everything is cool by me, just dont eat that fruit." Right then the concept of good and evil entered into human thought process. Everything I want to do is good except...
As soon as God forbade ANYTHING He made it evil, therefore He is the originator of the concept.
Farkel,
Quote “do you get “better” at the game of life by being a self-serving criminal who could not care less about the rights and lives or others, or do you get “better” at the game of life by helping, loving and sharing what you have with others”
I like that thought so much I will dare to respond. I will take your advise and ignore my timidity .
.
Jesus was never accused of being righteous. He was even thought of by the religious leaders as being unrighteous, evil, because he did not live up to their human standard of righteousness.
Yet he was known as a “good” man. So on the issue of ‘evil’ or ‘good’ the son of God was thought to be on the wrong side. Aside from the Hebrew scripture portrayal of God (another subject), wasn’t what Jesus represented to us what we all admire: love, tolerance, forgiveness, GOODNESS.
Paul said in Rom. 5:7 “ For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die.” Obviously goodness is superior to righteousness. Righteousness is about our own personal justification. It is limited to us only and pursuit of it is sometime very selfish. But “Goodness” if far superior because it goes beyond our own needs and looks out for other people. Thus the Jews and Pharisees of Jesus illustration passed by the wounded man but the ‘good’ Samaritan stopped and helped.
We JW’s and X’s tend to be obsessed with righteousness or unrighteousness which is limited and personal. But you focused on the real issues in my mind, “helping, loving and sharing what you have with others”. This is GOODNESS. This is what Jesus was all about. Hope to discuss this more sometime.
Jst2laws
: We JW’s and X’s tend to be obsessed with righteousness or unrighteousness which is limited and personal. But you focused on the real issues in my mind, “helping, loving and sharing what you have with others”. This is GOODNESS. This is what Jesus was all about. Hope to discuss this more sometime.
Since becoming an xJW, virtually every JW I've ever met that has earned my trust and respect has said what you just said. Consider that a compliment!
Farkel
