Angel of the True God

StarTrekAngel

I usually open posts such as this one with disclaimer for the atheists/agnostics out there. I respect your position and what I tried to do in posts like this one is discuss the bible, wether you believe the stories or not.

I believe it is well known that in JW doctrine it is thought that no one has ever seen God. This teaching is also supplemented by the accounts of Moises, where Jehovah told him that no one can see him and yet live to tell the tale.

I, however, was always puzzled by some of the grammar in the bible where it seems to imply that God appeared to people. Most notable are the account of Genesis (Abraham) where God seems to appear to Abraham in more than one occasion. I also noticed that the term "Angel of Jehovah" or "Angel of the True God" is somewhat used interchangeably in the bible. Upon looking it up, it seems that there is a consensus that the word "Angel" is usually interpreted as messenger. Is worth noticing that some reads imply that the word "Angel" could be applied to a human messenger but also to a supernatural one. Some sources even affirm that the term "Angel of Yahwe" can also applied to God himself. Off course, the WT would probably dismiss any references to such idea as they insist God has never come down to earth and has never been seen by anyone.

I recently stumbled upon the accounts of Judges chapter 6. By the way, this is a great chapter to use in showing a JW that faith is not blind and that demanding a sign is not frowned upon by God. Back in the subject matter, Judges 6:20, in summary, accounts on how Jehovah (or the Angel of, as both terms are used in the narrative) performs a sign to show Gideon that he was the true God. Upon realizing it was for real, Gideon exclaims (towards the end of par 22) "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face"23 But Jehovah said to him:" Peace by yours. Do not fear, You will not die"

I can't help to conciliate all of the above. In one hand, the writer (supposedly inspired) seems to alternatively refer to the being as "Jehovah" or "the angel of Jehovah" which leads to understand that God himself was down on earth talking to Gideon. Such would make sense, if we keep in mind the words of Moises, as having realized that God had come down, Gideon was scared of the fact that he saw him. But why then, did he not die and was told affirmatively so? Could it be that one can not see the spiritual manifestation of God and live but that God would take the form of an angel in order to present himself to humans?I mean, sort of like if an angel was more of a vessel for spiritual beings to come down to the material world and God has a ride of his own?

I think I recall another paragraph of the bible of a similar situation on which a prophet got scared upon realizing he was face to face with God. I just can't recall where it was.

Anyone ever done any research on the matter?

Viviane

I believe it is well known that in JW doctrine it is thought that no one has ever seen God.

It says no one can see god and live. And the answer is simple. The Bible is full of contradictions.

SecretSlaveClass

Viviane
It says no one can see god and live. And the answer is simple. The Bible is full of contradictions.

Exactly. One would assume this would be enough to question its reliability.

CalebInFloroda

That was a very interesting part of study I did early in my theology years, namely that divine revelation to Moses and others included theophanies (visions of G-d) but the Jews still believed that if they saw G-d that they would die--even after G-d proved otherwise by demonstration.

You read this all through the Tanakh, and like Vivane says it is a contradiction. What it demonstrates, regardless if the stories are meant to be historical or just legends, is that the Jews are repeatedly described as disbelieving G-d.

G-d appears to Moses as fire burning in a bush, and Moses readily looks at it until G-d tells him he is seeing G-d. Only then does Moses shield his face.

This happens again at the Great Theophany, at the foot of Mt. Sinai, where G-d appears as a great fire on the mountain and even speaks, but the people won't have it, believing they will die if G-d keeps showing himself and talking. But later Moses and elders from the tribes have a "meal/meeting" with G-d face-to-face on the mountain.

The theme actually runs throughout the Tanakh and is related to the reason why Jews are called the "children of Israel" and not the "children of Abraham." Israel (Jacob) wrestled with an angel, or theophany of G-d and wouldn't stop once the roughhousing, so to speak, came to end. G-d had to wound Jacob to end the situation.

The underlying lesson is that the G-d "concept" is something Jews have always struggled with. It demands a level of trust and faith that Jews have not ever been comfortable with. We don't believe in submitting to G-d. G-d put us here, in the mud, so to speak, and expects us to live our lives alone? No way, Jews say, you put us here and we're bringing you down with us, down into the same mud! It's a fight to define G-d as G-d, to re-define G-d as history moves, and to allow G-d at the same time to be self-defining...and then arguing with G-d about it all. That's why its totally acceptable to be a Jew who is atheist or agnostic. We are thus children of Israel, those who refuse to submit to G-d.

So you will read G-d saying it is okay to see G-d, and Jews telling him that they will die if they see him. It's a running theme (or maybe even a running joke) in the Scriptures.

jhine

STA , I have mentioned this on other threads ,but as it is relevant to your OP I will mention it again .

The Early Church Father's did believe in the Trinity , the "quotes" in the " Should You Believe In The Trinity " booklet are doctored .

The reasoning in " Dialogue with Trypho " by Justin Martyr (150 ad ) is that the God who appeared to Abraham was God the Son . The purpose of the work was to explain to the Jews that the Trinity was evident in the OT .

Jan

JustVisting

I believe the WT says that Moses was in the presence of an angel not the Almighty himself on that occasion. Remember, the WT scholars will do the "heavy lifting" with regards to bible research. So do not waste precious time with such questions.

Clambake

In the old testament the figure known as “the angel of the lord “ who is identified as god and being with god is thought to be the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ.

Contradiction? ……………………….Kind of and not really. It depends on if you believe in the plurality of god in the old testament. You can’t see god the father just god the son. Thus you get the “ In the being was the word and the word was with god and was god “.

I really don’t understand it all and believe no one really does.

The interesting part about it , this concept is completely ignored in Jehovah witness theology. I think when studying the entire bible it appears jesus and god the father together comprised Jehovah, Yahway , LORD……………whatever you want to call him.

Island Man

Maybe the angels of Jehovah act like a tele-presence medium such that Jehovah speaks directly through them and manifests his physical likeness through the angel's being. Think of it like Jehovah possessing the angel except it's a very thorough possession such that the angel becomes like an exact image or representation of Jehovah. So in practical terms the person is seeing Jehovah and hearing him speak directly although technically, Jehovah is not literally present but is projecting an exact representation of his presence through the angel. By way of illustration, think of speaking to someone over a video phone. You can see the person and hear their direct speech, using the video phone as a medium. But the person is not literally physically present. In a similar sense maybe the angel's of Jehovah function as a super advanced video phone - or more accurately, a tele-presence device - so that it can be said that the person sees Jehovah. The bit about not being able to see Jehovah and live, applies to seeing him directly if he is physically present.

Awakenednow

I recently read an article stating that passages of this sort are codes for Kanbalistic tree of life progressions... And then there is always Ancient Aliens theory😱👽

I wish for all truth seekers we can finally have an honest answer but I'm discovering it's best just to live in the moment and embrace what's real, beauty of creation, loving relationships etc., turning away from empty arguments and conditional so-called friends and "theocratic family" .

Gaiam TV is fun if you are looking for possible quantum multidimensional explanations for passages such as these.

Best wishes to you and I hope you find what you are searching for! 😀

StarTrekAngel

LOL Exactly my point Island Man. This is why I warn atheist when I open thread like these. The discussion can get pretty crazy.

Never the less, the point of the discussion is not wether the stories of the bible are true or not but rather how would you catch a JW on their own teachings. Comparing not the contradictions of the bible with itself, but the contradictions of the bible against their own doctrine.

Thanks all for your thoughts

Angel of the True God

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