How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  SwedishChef

  Donkey,
  would my giving you evidence make a difference at all?

  I would like to make one general point. It is obvious just by looking at society that Jesus existed, and that He must have did some great things.

  Who else has had such a great impact on people's lives, generation after generation, for 2,000 years? He is more than a house-hold name. He is a name countless millions have carried to their deaths at the hand of their persecutors. (i.e. the Catholic Church) This name many have sung about while being burnt at the stake. What could possibly cause such great faith? What could this man have done some 2,000 years ago that would leave such an unsurpassed impact on the world?

  False prophets come and go. People claimed to be Messiah before Jesus started His ministry, and many have claimed to be Messiah afterward. What makes Jesus any different? Could it be that He was the true Messiah? That this Jesus, who fulfilled every prophecy down to the detail, might in fact be telling the truth?

  If not, what would drive the apostles to spread these lies, as you would call them. What would the disciples have to gain? Surely, the apostles writings weren't the force behind it: Jesus was. Every apostle, except for one, suffered and died for the cause of Christ gladly.

  Would you suffer crucifixion, Donkey, to uphold a lie? Do you really think this is human nature? What would be your motivation?
• 

  StinkyPantz

  If not, what would drive the apostles to spread these lies, as you would call them. What would the disciples have to gain? Surely, the apostles writings weren't the force behind it: Jesus was. Every apostle, except for one, suffered and died for the cause of Christ gladly.

  Would you suffer crucifixion, Donkey, to uphold a lie? Do you really think this is human nature? What would be your motivation?

  This wasn't addressed to me but I'd like to comment on it.

  what would drive the apostles to spread these lies, as you would call them.

  Fame, glory, martyrdom. Or maybe they just wanted to help their people, to give them something to believe in. Maybe it was an elaborate hoax. I think the same is true of Muhammad.

  What would the disciples have to gain?

  It's obvious that people will believe in almost anything. Jesus' disciples wanted to believe because they had been taught their entire lives that a Messiah would come. So when one was presented to them they sucked it all up. Or maybe Jesus was really an alien and that's the true source of his "powers" .

  Would you suffer crucifixion, Donkey, to uphold a lie? Do you really think this is human nature? What would be your motivation?

  I believe that many people would do this very thing if the believe that it would help in the big scheme of things. And if Jesus in some schizophrenic delusion really believed he was "the Messiah", then of course he'd do this.
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  Soledad

  I

  would like to make one general point. It is obvious just by looking at society that Jesus existed, and that He must have did some great things.

  which "society" are you talking about? I cant see how Jesus impacted the lives of residents in Eastern societies (India Japan Mongolia etc) or in the ancient Aztec and Inca empires. In fact I cant even see how the bible impacted those societies at all! can you explain why the bible seems to focus only on one particular area in the world?
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  crownboy

  SwedishChef, perhaps Jesus and his apostles were martyred for the same reason that Mohammed was able to go to heaven and speak to god. None of this stuff ever happened. Just because some people write about a miracle performing godman who resembles pagan deities in many ways, does not mean that that person actually existed (or IMO, "Jesus" existed, but he was nothing close to the pagan plagarized guy written about in the bible. Most likely a regular dude with some eastern like ideas with a large following or something). And as has already been pointed out, others have died for causes that were not based in fact, e.g. Jim Jones, etc.

  BTW, Buddha's philosophy has existed for longer than Jesus', perhaps a move to Tibet is in order?
• 

  Stan Conroy

  SwedishChef,

  Using the word "obvious" is an ineffectual tool for making your point. Too many years of WT doublespeak for that trick to work on me.

  As for the whole striped goat issue, you are saying that that was a miracle from God? To what end? So that Jacob could cheat Laban? (see verse 41&42) Is that what miracles are for? I see no evidence that this account is on par with the parting of the Read Sea or any of the other miraculous events of the Bible you mentioned.

  As for the bat issue, you are talking about the Bible and science. It is illogical at this point to change your tune and say that that was the classification of animals at the time. If you want to use that logic, then are we to base all Bible vs science issues to the science of the day?

  Stan
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  expatbrit

  It should also be pointed out that the assertion that every apostle except one was martyred is an unproven one, based upon the highly questionable writings of early Christian apologists.

  Here is a quite good article dealing with the subject: http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/4/4why97.html

  Expatbrit
• 

  rem

  Swedish Chef,

  Please, I was pointing out in that passage in Zechariah that Jehovah says He was pierced.

  Ok, so the reason you pointed it out is because you believed the scripture in Zechariah was a messianic prophecy.

  I never said it was a prophecy of the Messiah.

  Huh? Once sentence before you just said it was a prophecy of the messiah. The only reason I went to the trouble of providing the context of the scripture for you is because you said it was yet another messianic prophecy. Here - I'll refresh your memory:

  Here is another verse which mentions piercing.
  Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
  Hundreds of years before His birth, the Bible had already predicted (among other things) that Jesus would be pierced.

  Now you are changing your tune and saying that you didn't mean it was a messianic prophecy? If you don't believe it was a messianic prophecy, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

  I have to say, you are not make a very good "case for christ", my dear Swedish Chef. Now that we can rule out messianic prophecy, how is it, again, that you know the bible is true?

  rem
• 

  SwedishChef

  StinkyPantz,
  
  It was the Jews themselves who wanted to crucify Jesus. They didn't want the Messiah, they said "Caesar is our king." I doubt the apostles (and not just the apostles, there were also thousands of Christians who committed their life to the work of Christ --not matter what the cost) were doing it to make their fellow Jews feel good.
  
  Most people would have a whole lot of trouble dying for something they believe in, let alone a giant lie.
  
  Rem,
  
  I love how you play word games with me, trying to make me fumble up what I say. But what I have said is clear.
  
  In any case, I am under no obligation to spend all my time trying to convince you or anyone of the truth of the Bible. The Bible says once or twice, and then move on to the next person.
  
  You can find evidence supporting the Bible with just as much effort as I can. I'm not going to waste my time spoon feeding information to you when your just going to spit it back in my face.
  
  The fact is, I have more evidence to support my view than you have to support the notion that the universe popped out of nowhere and we all came from a rock.
  
  It seems this has just turned into a vain argument. Take what I say as you wish to. I mean nothing to be arrogant or conceded. If you knew you had to truth, you would want to tell people too. But this is achieving nothing.
  
  I only ask that you look at the other side of the argument. Read what the Bible says, just try to take its meaning to heart. I know from my experience, that once you get into the real in-depth things of God, you will see how beautifully woven this book is from cover to cover. What have you got to lose? All you have to gain is possibly a new life in Christ. Do you think I have never questioned the Bibles authenticity? I have number of times. I have researched, found evidence. But this is not what won me over. It is the fact that the Bibles promises come true. Jesus says "come unto me all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest." The Bible also says that those who trust in the Lord will have the peace of God that "passes all understanding," and that they are "new creatures" in Christ. It also says that the Holy Spirit "bears witness with our spirit" that we are the children of God.
  As foolish as this must sound to you, it is all true. And I have seen God working in my life.
  1 "Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
  
  Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
• 

  SwedishChef

  StinkyPantz911,
  My my, sounds like your belief is based upon faith. Your placing your faith upon these scientists to deliver to you the truth, and your even placing your faith on something that you can't see -- the time when they "figure everything out."
  
  I'll answer your question for you. God has always existed. He has an everlasting past. He spoke the universe into existence.
  
  The Biblical account is more valid than the "big bang" theory which you probably believe. Though you atheists claim to be logical, the entire basis for your beliefs is just the opposite. The universe just can't pop out of nowhere. Where you like to admit it or not, a Creator is the only logical answer.

  Edited by - SwedishChef on 31 December 2002 23:36:10
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  larc

  Brother Chef, if God spoke into existense, what is to prevent him from doing it with a big bang? You don't know how he did it, so why do you object to the idea of a big bang? Do you even know why scientists think it all started with a big bang?????????