by donkey 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
When I returned to college a few years back, I took an Old Testament Survey class. I remember learning that in Old Testament times (or, in the days of the ancient Hebrews, according to the teachings of the Jews) there was no concept of an evil God versus a Good God. The God of the Hebrews was all in one. According to my professor, the idea of the two dueling Gods came from Zoroastrianism. At least that's the way I remember it.
Happy New Year!
God is not pointing a gun on your head and saying, "Worship me or I'll blow your brains out!",No. He's saying "Worship me or I'll keep you in excruciating pain forever!" It's funny that people say how compasionate and merciful God is and then they believe that He will punish someone forever for a few years of not worshiping him. No government in this wicked world will stoop to that. Well.........Hitler tried.
Also as far as what "worship" means.................. Look it up in the dictionary. If it meant fellowship then the translators should have used the word fellowship.
TimB
God won't punish you if you came to the salvation of Christ and not worshipped a few years after that. Salvation is permanant because Christ made it permanant on the day of Calvary. It's up to us if we want that salvation of Christ, it's YOUR choice.
We're all born into the original sin of Adam and Eve. The curse remains from generation to generation and the only way that curse can be broken is to accept the finished work of Christ on the Cross. That's why Christ came here. He suffered greatly because he loved us and offered unconditional love as who we are.
The dictionary doesn't explain in terms as we understand it. Man can't fathom what it means to worship God. I understand what it means because I live it everyday. I worship in fellowship, admiration, love, not in fear because I do not fear Him. I am no longer afraid of God because I love Him. Jesus said many times in the NT, "fear not". He doesn't want us to be afraid, not anymore.
Are you a father? Does your son in a way "worship" you? Not in bowing and praying to you, but in love, admiration, tenderness, caring, fellowship, etc? Does your son while growing up imitate the things that you do? He's wanting to be like you. If you stand in a mirror and shave your face, your son could be next to you pretending to do the same thing. You could be reading a newspaper and he's next to you reading a comic book.
Now, do you lay ground rules for your son to live by and expect him to obey and meet your expectations? What if you told your son not to cross the street and he did it anyway? How would you feel? Are you gonna throw lightening bolts at him? No, first you would fear for his safety because that's the first and foremost concern for you at that very moment. Then you would be upset because he didn't listen to you. You may even sit down and have a man to boy talk. You might have to punish him for disobeying your rule.
God is no different than a human father of this world. He laid the rules, "The Ten Commandments", but not only God is a father to his creation, he can also be a judge to the law God gave us. He has the option of laying mercy before judgement and he has done it many times before.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[ 4:10 Or as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away] our sins.
1 Corinthians 13 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
Exodus 34:6
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD , the LORD , the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
(Whole Chapter: Exodus 34 In context: Exodus 34:5-7)
Numbers 14:18
'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.'
(Whole Chapter: Numbers 14 In context: Numbers 14:17-19)
Nehemiah 9:17
They refused to listen and failed to remember the miracles you performed among them. They became stiff-necked and in their rebellion appointed a leader in order to return to their slavery. But you are a forgiving God, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. Therefore you did not desert them,
(Whole Chapter: Nehemiah 9 In context: Nehemiah 9:16-18)
Psalm 86:15
But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 86 In context: Psalm 86:14-16)
Psalm 103:8
The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 103 In context: Psalm 103:7-9)
Psalm 145:8
The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 145 In context: Psalm 145:7-9)
Joel 2:13
Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.
(Whole Chapter: Joel 2 In context: Joel 2:12-14)
Jonah 4:2
He prayed to the LORD , "O LORD , is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.
(Whole Chapter: Jonah 4 In context: Jonah 4:1-3)
Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger and great in power; the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet.
(Whole Chapter: Nahum 1 In context: Nahum 1:2-4)
God much prefers to withhold His anger and put love first. He always has and always will.
Just as now He is reserving His judgement until the last day, allowing time for the Gospel of Christ to take it's course. After that, God will put forth His judgement against those who have rejected Him and those who refuse to believe in Him.
God cannot force His will upon you. Neither can I. It's entirely up to you. The choice is yours and yours alone.
If you don't want to go to Heaven, that is your choice.
If you don't want to be saved, that is your choice.
No one, not even God had make your choices. You do.
Yizuman
Edited by - Yizuman on 1 January 2003 1:0:35
So let me see if I have this straight then (Donkey's struggle with things like this).
Both God and the Devil created hell? Is that what you are saying Yizu? Before you launched into the sermon on completely unrelated stuff...
I am going to ignore the stuff all about my choices etc. That is not the subbject of my thread. The fact is that there are bad people, if judged in line with scripture - correct? They go to hell? Who runs hell? God or Satan?
Those are simple questions - not opportunities for you to preach about love. If you cannot answer the basic questions then we will simply assume that you don't know or refuse to try to figure out the answers.
Most of the Christians I have encountered focused on simple doctrines such as what happens the good dudes and what happens to the bad dudes. I am still at the simple stage. I cannot accept the love of someone I do not understand. I am trying to understand the way things are in the Christian world - everytime I ask a question I run into a wall of "huh?" If your simple dogma is correct then surely you know the answers to the questions I am asking.
You say there is a heaven and a hell. I say fine - who is running the show. You say God is love. Do you see the incoherence? I am not picking on you Yizu - I have this same thing happen to me time after time with Christians. They claim to know their own teachings but they refuse to explain them.
Jack
Both God and the Devil created hell? Is that what you are saying Yizu?
Nope, God created hell for the sole purpose of Satan and his angels. It's never been God's goal to create hell for the purpose of sending humans to hell to begin with.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 25 In context: Matthew 25:40-42)
The devil never had the ability to create things and he never has and never will.
Note: Jesus never said it was prepared for man, only the devil and his angels. But now since man from the beginning who followed after evil and sin, they too will follow the devil and the angel's demise.
There is two classes of fathers that we choose to follow and Jesus pointed them out. We have a Father in heaven and a Father who is the devil who is jealous of God and wants to be like the most High.
Isaiah 14 13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [1]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The bible clearly states that it is not God's will that man should perish, but have everlasting life. The gospel of Christ does not include Satan nor his angels. They are not included for salvation. They blew it the day they tried to overthrow God and got kicked out of heaven. So they know where they are going when the time comes for them. So Satan knows he's going down, but before that happens, he's going to try and take as many souls he can with him before the end comes. So he's out there messing with the minds of people with lies and deceit.
1 Peter 5:8
Be self controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 5 In context: 1 Peter 5:7-9)
He's looking for suckers to fall for his bags of tricks and keep them away from the real Truth, that is Jesus Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(Whole Chapter: John 14 In context: John 14:5-7)
His number one goal is to keep people from discovering Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The more people who don't know Jesus, the more souls end up going where Satan will soon go. It's basically an all out battle for souls in the spirit realm.
I am going to ignore the stuff all about my choices etc. That is not the subbject of my thread. The fact is that there are bad people, if judged in line with scripture - correct? They go to hell? Who runs hell? God or Satan?
God created hell (jailhouse) for the purpose of locking up the bad people who rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus. Also for breaking God's law and committing sin. If people rejected the Gospel of Christ and doesn't want to have anything to do with it and wants to do their own thing, that is their choice and the end result of their choice is being locked up in hell. It's a prison, hell is not the same as the lake of fire. They are two different things. It's a place where the souls will await judgement day.
The Dead Are Judged Revelations 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
In other words, if man has no desire to be set free from the curse of the original sin of man (Adam) even though Christ has already provided a way out of that curse by his own sacrifice that paved a way for man to come to God and be saved. If they don't want to be saved, so be it.
Same idea when you commit a crime and the cops busts you and puts you in jail to await trial before the judge. Hell is the same exact purpose.
So yes, He did create hell and is in control over it just as much as God is in control of everything within His creation.
Let me ask you this, is it fair for me to say that it would be hard to fathom the love of God based upon the fact that we may have a bad biological father to begin with? In order words, it would be hard to conceive the love of God based on the fact we may had never experienced true and deep love from our biological father to begin with? So it would be hard to shake off the bad experience we may have had with our biological father and look beyond that bad experience in a entirely different light?
Yizuman
The devil never had the ability to create things and he never has and never will.
Sorry, donkey. This is off course of your thread, but would like to interject:
Yiz, if we are to believe the story of the Nephilim (yeah, I know, I know. But let's suspend disbelief for a sec), who created, not one man, but a race of men(materialized angels) with the ability to procreate? Satan and other rogue angels or God? Who gave them (not only the rogue angels, but the offspring they produced) the breath of life? And if from God, why would He support something supposedly so evil as Satan's own plans to undermine God's plans?
Yiz, if we are to believe the story of the Nephilim (yeah, I know, I know. But let's suspend disbelief for a sec), who created, not one man, but a race of men(materialized angels) with the ability to procreate? Satan and other rogue angels or God? Who gave them (not only the rogue angels, but the offspring they produced) the breath of life? And if from God, why would He support something supposedly so evil as Satan's own plans to undermine God's plans?
Angels can't procreate. Unless you can provide biblical proof that they can.
Yizuman
Sorry, Yiz. Sometimes a person gets so vapor-locked in his own understanding of a particular thing that he thinks a responder thinks the same way.
Let me back up a bit and ask you to tell me what you believe about the 'angels who forsook their own proper places' Jude(6) and 'Nephilim' statements in the bible(Gen 6:2-4). Who are the 'sons of the true God' at Gen 6:2?
Again, my apologies for pre-supposing your beliefs.
Yizu,
Your inteperetation of hell is different than that of most believers. The majority holds a much simpler view.
Let me see if I understand it.
Nope, God created hell for the sole purpose of Satan and his angels. It's never been God's goal to create hell for the purpose of sending humans to hell to begin with.
So God created hell. And no humans are going to hell? Is that right?
The devil never had the ability to create things and he never has and never will.
That's interesting. So then god has created things like ebola, AIDS, flesh eating viruses and anthrax? Why did he do that? There are 3 options: God did it, the devil did it or they evolved. Which would it be?
The bible clearly states that it is not God's will that man should perish, but have everlasting life
So are all humans going to heaven or only some? If only some then what happens to the bad ones?
Here is the interesting one:
God created hell (jailhouse) for the purpose of locking up the bad people who rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus. Also for breaking God's law and committing sin. If people rejected the Gospel of Christ and doesn't want to have anything to do with it and wants to do their own thing, that is their choice and the end result of their choice is being locked up in hell. It's a prison, hell is not the same as the lake of fire. They are two different things. It's a place where the souls will await judgement day
OK - so hell is a jail and then there is the lake of fire. What is the difference? What happens in the jail? Who runs the jail? What is the lake of fire? Who runs that? Who created the lake of fire?
Jack
Hell was created by the early religions to scare the Bjesus out of their followers and keep them under their control.
Will
Your inteperetation of hell is different than that of most believers. The majority holds a much simpler view.
Well, believe it or not, I don't listen to man at all when it comes to studying God's word. There's 2 rules I follow when it comes to studying His word...
John 14 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
The Holy Spirit is my teacher, before I open the bible, I ask the Father to send His Holy Spirit to help open my mind to His word and to teach me any particular passage that I may come across that is difficult for me to understand. As you may already well know...
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is GodÂbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
(Whole Chapter: 2 Timothy 3 In context: 2 Timothy 3:15-17) (Greek: Godbreathed means inspired by the Holy Spirit)
So the author of the Word is the HS and He is the source I go to when I have difficulty understanding His word.
If I do sit in church and listen to the sermans, I don't take everything the preacher or teacher say in face value, rather I compare scripture with scripture to make sure what I am listening to is scripturally sound.
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
(Whole Chapter: Acts 17 In context: Acts 17:10-12)
The Bereans were smart and took great care to make sure what ever lesson they receive lines up with God's word. Something that the WT has always discouraged for many years and pushes their books and magazines for them to study instead of the bible alone.
Nope, God created hell for the sole purpose of Satan and his angels. It's never been God's goal to create hell for the purpose of sending humans to hell to begin with.So God created hell. And no humans are going to hell? Is that right?
No. (sigh) I apologize that I am not very good at conveying my thoughts into words since I am not exactly a master of words. At times when I try to convey my thoughts into words, it doesn't always come back to me matching my very thought I had tried to convey. So it tends to get frustrating for me. I will try to be more clearer this time.
Humans are going to hell (remember, like I said, it's a jailhouse for the souls who rejected God [before Christ] and the Gospel of Christ after the fact.). BUT, he never created hell with in mind to place man in hell for whatever immoral reason man has done.
Let me try and explain it this way...remember that scripture said that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels but failed to mention man in the same sentence? Ok, before man was created, the angels was already created before man. So, there was a time period between the creation of the angels and man. A gap period so to speak. Now scripture says...
2 Peter 3 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (the second bold text is one of the good points I had addressed in my earlier posts)
Now, scripture says earth was created in 6 days. Since God is not bound by the laws of physics, such as time. We as humans are bound by the laws of physics and that includes time. So, in real time creation by our human standards, it may have taken 6 thousand years for earth to have been completely formed whereas to God it was 6 days to Him.
So there was plenty of time in between those years for Lucifer (aka Satan) and his angels to sin against God and get kicked out of heaven prior to the creation of man. Now are the angels bound by the same law of Physics as God? Scripture doesn't say, but since they got kicked out of heaven, it is possible they are bound by our laws of physics. I have no way of knowing this since there is nothing in scripture that can help me confirm my theory. While it makes sense to me, but at the same time, I could be wrong. But what we do know from scripture that the angels are immortal, they do not age like we do.
Now, since Lucifer got his booty kicked out for being a major loser, hell was created as a prison specifically for him and his followers. That was done before the creation of man. So that's why Matthew 25:41 is missing the word "man" in the passage.
But now man has been created, so man sinned against God just as Lucifer sinned against God. So man got included into the punishment system just the same as the angels are included into the system.
To be more specific, Hell was originally created for Lucifer and his buddies, He did not have man in mind at that particular time when He created hell. This is before the fact. Now after the fact, man sinned against God and those who choose evil or chosen a life of seperation from God have now been included to be sent to hell (jail) based on the choice they have made.
I really hope I am making sense now or at least far more clearer than my earlier post. I really put a lot of thought into this and hope there isn't some confusion here, at least I am trying very hard to eliminate any confusion in thought. But I got a feeling you will be confused, so go ahead and point them out and I will try to be more clearer on it. I'm a patient guy.
That's interesting. So then god has created things like ebola, AIDS, flesh eating viruses and anthrax? Why did he do that? There are 3 options: God did it, the devil did it or they evolved. Which would it be?
Now you're getting into medical facts of nature that is part of nature. It is nonsense for someone to say AIDS was created by God because it would make no sense for God to create something and then introduce a destructive force to destroy it. Just as it is nonsense for man to build a house and then introduce termites into the house in order to destroy what he had built.
Now since you want to get into something of medical nature such as AIDS, let me remind you why God placed a law against fornication and adultry. These two particular laws is designed to protect the health and well being of man and woman. For this reason God knows the exact make up of our bodies and He knows what can make us sick and what can help make us stay healthy. The bible is full of rules that teaches us what to stay away from for the sake of our health and what to do in order to remain healthy and productive in our lives.
Man chose to ignore the laws and rules of God and as a result of it, VD popped up because man had more than one partner. They didn't understand at the time that it is unhealthy to have more than one partner because at that particular time, medical education wasn't as advanced as we now have today. Other things like how to wash your hands before eating food (like after taking a bathroom break). Many various reasons and when man don't stay healthy, disaster strikes with devestating results. Sometimes disaster strikes anyway no matter how hard we try to stay healthy. When it happens, it happens.
Unfortunantly, no matter how advance our medical education has become, man is still stubborn and stupid to keep on having sex with more than one partner. All these nasty nasty germs we gather from different people over the years and some even has became part of our genetic make up, making the viruses become more potent as each generation goes by. Man will still be stupid to do ALOT of unhealthy things in their life that results in bad consequences.
These viruses are generated either by nature that went awry or by man made stupidity and others are created in labs that resulted in intentional and unintentional consequences for a human being. Like for example; world war 1, Germany made germ warefare that killed thousands of men in the battlefield, some Germans died from "friendly fire" so to speak (in other words, it backfired on them).
So are all humans going to heaven or only some? If only some then what happens to the bad ones?
Good question, here's what scripture says....
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 7 In context: Matthew 7:12-14)
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 7 In context: Matthew 7:13-15)
The good news is that there are over 50 million born again believers all over the globe that knows Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The bad news is that we are outnumbered far more than 50 million that do not know the Lord and many of those people are heading for hell whether they know it or not. Whether they want to to hell or not. But the good news is that during the Tribulation period, there will be a major harvest of souls being saved far more than man will have ever seen since the Gospel began 2000 years ago.
You see, the narrow road in the Christian life is a very difficult road to walk in. It's not easy, but with the help of God (if we let Him) we can make it through in whatever lifetime we have left before our time comes.
But the wider road is much easier to walk in, free of care, doing whatever we want to do, not give a crap what anybody thinks and don't give a crap how our actions affects the lives around us, etc. Most people find this path to be far more easier to take than taking the narrow road and alot don't understand what it is like to take this narrow road and they lack the educational understanding of it. That includes even if man lived a straight and clean life w/o Christ in their lives, the curse of the original sin of man is still with them and they will die with that curse. Only Christ can break and remove it from their lives, if that is they want it to be removed (to be saved).
OK - so hell is a jail and then there is the lake of fire. What is the difference? What happens in the jail? Who runs the jail? What is the lake of fire? Who runs that? Who created the lake of fire?
Nobody runs it. Once they are in jail, they won't be able to get out, period. They will suffer like the rich man suffered (Luke 16:19-31) and will suffer even far more after they have been judged by the Great White Throne of Judgement and gets tossed into the lake of fire and burn forever and ever. The body will engulf in flames and it will never go out and they won't be able to die. Imagine the pain of being burned and it will never stop.
Lemme ask you this, would you rather take your chances in life today knowing that if you died in your sins at any given moment and blow the chance of salvation by not accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and face the day that you will burn for your sins forever and ever? Are you ready and willing to face that day if you were to die today w/o Jesus? Man, I hope you won't because I DO NOT WANT YOU THERE. Dude I want you with me in heaven. But it's up to you man, but I'd love it if you could come and be with me one day. I'd be not only honored to have you beside me before the Lord's presence, but also honored to have you as my friend.
Yizuman
Edited by - Yizuman on 2 January 2003 5:13:58
