Want to close my posts to this thread by welcoming 'aojumper' to the fray of this conversation and thanking him/her for being willing to jump into such a topic as a 'newbie'(something I was unable to do). Hope you continue to post your opinions. It's not so much about being right or wrong(IMHO), but being able to express you opinion(without the threat of expulsion) here that is so great.
Is the USA a bully?
by Robdar 83 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
seawolf
Lilacs,
If that is true, they might as well have done it themselves. Sending them to someone else to be tortured is even worse IMHO.
The off-limits patch of ground at Bagram is one of a number of secret overseas detention centres where US due process does not apply. Another is Diego Garcia, an island in the Indian Ocean that the US leases from Britain.
In other cases, usually involving lower-level captives, the CIA hands them to foreign intelligence services, notably those of Jordan, Egypt and Morocco, with a list of questions the agency wants answered.
These "extraordinary renditions" are done without resort to legal process and usually involve countries with security services known for using brutal means.
According to one official who has been directly involved in transferring captives the understanding is: "We don't kick the [expletive] out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511135568.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,865311,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2607629.stm
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/12/us1227.htm
http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,866168,00.html
In a related topic, (if the below is happening at Guantanamo, is it happening with the people being sent to Egypt, Morocco, etc?) the problem with this is that innocent people are turned in and have no business being there in the first place:
Dozens of the detainees are Afghan and Pakistani nationals described in classified intelligence reports as farmers, taxi drivers, cobblers and laborers. Some were low-level fighters conscripted by the Taliban in the weeks before the collapse of the ruling Afghan regime.
None of the 59 met U.S. screening criteria for determining which prisoners should be sent to Guantanamo Bay, military sources said. But all were transferred anyway, sources said, for reasons that continue to baffle and frustrate intelligence officers nearly a year after the first group of detainees arrived at the facility."There are a lot of guilty [people] in there," said one officer, "but there's a lot of farmers in there too."
Others were grabbed by Pakistani soldiers patrolling the Afghan border who collected bounties for prisoners, sources said. One such prisoner was captured at a restaurant near the border where he claimed to have lived and worked for 20 years.
http://www.latimes.com/la-na-gitmo22dec22011424,0,4293848.story
http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/13848/1.html
So innocent people were turned in by Pakistani soldiers for $$$$, were turned in by the afghans in an effort to prove themselves to the americans, etc...
"We're basically condemning these guys to long-term imprisonment," said a military official who was a senior interrogator at Guantanamo Bay.
"If they weren't terrorists before, they certainly could be now." -
seawolf
Want to close my posts to this thread by welcoming 'aojumper' to the fray of this conversation and thanking him/her for being willing to jump into such a topic as a 'newbie'(something I was unable to do). Hope you continue to post your opinions. It's not so much about being right or wrong(IMHO), but being able to express you opinion(without the threat of expulsion) here that is so great.
Agreed.
-
pettygrudger
Want to close my posts to this thread by welcoming 'aojumper' to the fray of this conversation and thanking him/her for being willing to jump into such a topic as a 'newbie'(something I was unable to do). Hope you continue to post your opinions. It's not so much about being right or wrong(IMHO), but being able to express you opinion(without the threat of expulsion) here that is so great.
Agreed with this one - welcome aojumper & "noone" - its nice to meet both of you (albeit under different circumstances might have been "nicer").
-
gsx1138
The U.S. does things that are in its own interest. Does this make it a bully? Sometimes yes. I think most Americans are also blinded by our own propoganda and believe that we are willing to do things for other countries out of the goodness of our heart. This is complete crap, there is always a reason or political purpose for us helping another country. In this sense we are no better or worse than any other first world country. The fact is we've done some pretty shitty things to other people and it was always in our own interest. This does not make me proud to be an American. However, I'm not so blinded by liberalism to not realize that sometimes shitty things are very neccessary.
-
WildHorses
Seawolf, that is just awfull! To me, that makes the US officials just as bad as the terrorist. What do they think they are doing? You can't return evil for evil to people who never cause the evil in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I love having the freedom this country offers, but I think think our government needs to take a serious look at itself in the mirror.
-
back2dafront
Good topic.
I sincerely wish all you headstrong, gung-ho American patriots would do a little research on your current president and his family.
You really think any of this is about Bush & Co. and their "care for the people?" Give me a freakin BREAK. That family is ONLY concerned about MONEY and POWER. What does it take for people to realize how corrupt they are? Just as we've all seen and experienced the deciet and lies by the Borg, can you not see it amongst your own government as well? It's even more plain to see! The Bush family has business ties to large oil and arms companies - doesn't take a genius to figure out how to use the power of being President to manipulate world affairs to their personal monetary benefit.
Why do you continue to believe it all? Does it not bother you that they control everything we read and see in the papers and on TV? Can you not see how that power can be misused and IS being misused to their monetary benefit?
Let me spell it out for you:
THEY USE THE MEDIA TO PROGRAM AMERICANS MINDS THAT THE REASON FOR GOING TO WAR WITH IRAQ IS BECAUSE OF THE THREAT OF HUSSEIN (WHICH, WHILE IT IS A THREAT, IT IS NOT THE REAL REASON FOR THE WAR) SO THAT THEY PUT MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS BY THE INCREASE IN ARMS SALES (AS A RESULT OF WAR) AND A FIRMER POSITION IN THE ATTAINMENT OF OIL IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
That's the bottom line folks. That IS what's happening, and there's plenty of evidence to support it. Why we continue to allow this to happen is due to the people's inability to see through the lines and their backboneless ability to believe everything Dan Rather says. This government is corrupt to the CORE. Politics, religion, the CIA and FBI, the military, police forces, the media and greedy corporations are all tied together in corrupt, devious, scheming, money-making practices and deeds - a list that goes back hundreds of years and would take thousands of pages to relate.
They test chemicals on us, we wonder why everyone seems to have a "cold" lately. ("Our government would NEVER do such a thing" says the American people).
The DEA and police purposely wait until marijuana crops are at a time of harvesting before they raid the growers and take all of the crop. This happens time after time - this is not an isolated case whatsoever. They discourage the use of drugs, but they don't see anything wrong with benifiting monetarily from the profits of it.
They purposely put highly addictive amounts of nicotine in cigarettes so that people will become addicted to them quicker and easier, so that their companies can make even more of a profit. Yeah, here's a government that really cares about us and our "innocent lives." We're expendable.
Not to say there aren't a lot of government/military/political officals that are genuinely concerned about the welfare of the American population because there are a ton of them. Unfortunately they are being deceived as well, and those that attempt to unveal truths and evidence are tragically killed in auto wrecks or are reported "missing." It happens people - WAKE UP.
The average witness doesn't challenge what the GB tells them, and that's why there are so many brain-washed members that believe that something so obviously Holy and God-inspired could NEVER be wrong - they could never mislead people or lie to them outright. We know better don't we.
The average American believes everything they read in the local paper and see on CNN and other major news networks without challenging it and researching. Besides, our government would never mislead us or lie to us, because our safety is by far more important to them than anything money or power could offer. I hope we know better than this.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!
The Bush administration doesn't give a rats ass about the rights of any of us - they paint a pretty picture so that they can get the support they need to further their hidden agenda - total control of the world economy. For THEIR benefit. If you want to fight for their corrupt cause, go ahead. Join the army and go fire some missiles at Iraq. Send your kids and friends to war to put more money in George's pocket. Believe what you want to, but at least challenge everything you currently believe just as you did while you were a Witness. If you want to overlook the evidence just because you feel bound to patriotism for this great country, than do so, but realize there are other citizens that are able to perceive the bigger picture, and that's what prevents them from being so dedicated to a country as you do.
I still fail to see the reasoning behind what relevance the fact that many people want to get into this country has to do with anything. Just because they are trying to get here means...what? This is best place to live? There are a ton of countries that people are trying to get into, and most of the time it is for logistical purposes - U.S. is more prosperous than Mexico (a bordering country), so a lot of Mexicans come here. Spain is more prosperous than Africa (a neighboring country), so they have a lot of Africans trying to get there. Not one person on this board that lives in America can say they don't feel lucky when they see ads of African children starving, or Iraqi children dying from curable diseases, or women in Afghanistan being beaten, etc. etc. etc. But just because our reality is a lot different than other countries does not give me any incentive whatsoever to blindly follow every word, idea and policy the government says. There is no connection whatsoever, and it amazes me that some people continually fall back on this type of reasoning to justify their reason for pledging their allegiance to this corrupt system.
I pay my taxes and I actually voted, but don't ask me to believe in this country. I don't see "AMERICA" - I see land to live on habitated by a lot of narrow-minded, greedy individuals as citizens (this a generalization which obviously doesn't include the enlighted bunch of Americans). Yes, tons of people fought for my right to live here, but I can damn well live anywhere I want to if I put my mind to it. And there's tons of other places I feel would be a nicer, more culturally balanced areas to live in this world. I find it very interesting how the American's on this board are the only ones that show the "America or die" attitude - other people from other countries are not saying "You know personally I don't think all of the people of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East are worth one American life." Iwasyoungonce, I find that statement completely unacceptable and wonder what type of mentality you have - what do you say to yourself to justify such a statement?? What the hell have you done that makes you so better than millions of people from other countries, thousands of which are smarter and more intelligent than yourself? What have they done to you so that you feel that the life of another person from America is more valuable than the life of someone from Japan? I beg you to help all of us understand this, but as usual, it's easier for someone in this predicament to crawl under a rock, for there is no justifiable answer IMO.
The more and more I learn about American history the more I relate to Zach and Rage Against the Machine. If only people understood more clearly the issues they presented in their music - they sing a long with the music without understanding the message. Something needs to be done - I hate seeing people played like puppets like this.
USA not a bully? Just look at the bully-like comments from a few of it's citizens on this board - there's your answer.
LB wrote:
Yep what bullies we are. Imagine a world without the USA. It would just be peaceful and loving, a paradise for all to enjoy.
Laughable
"Yeah, without us your world would be even worse, so shut up and stop complaining. neener neener"
Aojumper wrote:
My question for all of you who post that the U.S. are bullies, which country do you want to live in? Pick one. Are there better countries? No not really, there may be a better fit though for different people, but there are always trade offs, there is no eutopia. Nor will there ever be one on earth. No matter how much the Watchtower insists it's coming.
"Our country is better than yours, our country is better than yours....and it always will...and it always will..nanny-nanny boo boo..."
Are there better countries? What ARE you smoking?? (must be some WHACK *&$% man) Never ceases to amaze me how so many people obviously think that people in other countries don't enjoy their freedoms and their cultures just as much as we do. After all, not every country other than America is communist, and not every country is plagued w/ starvation like Africa. <insert common sense> Hello - stray outside your town limits and try visiting areas like Holland, France, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Spain, Greece, Italy, and you will find beautiful people with beautiful families, wonderful cultures amongst the most breathtaking terrains - a lot better than Kansas, my friend. Just because you think your town is the best place in the world to live doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. Personally, if this is the common viewpoint of the folks in your area, please let me know where it is. SO I CAN STAY AWAY. Before making such a statement, it would be wise to establish your definition of "better."
I can't believe I feel so strongly about this subject - I've devoted at least an hour to this response. Holy Cow.
Happy New Year everyone!
peace and respect,
back2dafront
-
Roski
One or two resposes have mentioned the South Koreans. At present there is quite strong anti-American feeling there. Taxi drivers refusing to pick up foreigners, resteraunts and shops with signs saying 'no Americans". Some acts of persoanl violence, (rape, knife attack, etc). The new president is said to be more anti-American than the former. Much of the ill feeling is long standing and a result of the behaviour of US military personel. This is not the official line, just the feeling on the street.
-
thewiz
yep.
the USA ONLY has good bombs though.
they ONLY kill bad children.
i was looking at a museum down here in DC (american history) the nuke bombs killed @213,000 JAPS. if ONLY 25% of those were children that's about 53,000 kids.
and horrible and deplorable though it is/was WE dare call terrorism killing @3000 in the twin towers. what about @213,000 civilians?
the USA aren't the bullies of the world, they ARE the terrorists of the world.
look at what they are doing down in ?Argentina? a democratically elected president and the USA is creating pressure to remove him, because he's ONLY got @28% favor. Reagan had that low a rating at one time. this is info i heard from public radio.
environmental, economic, political, and military control. WE do it all.
instead of the USA or any other country seeing itself in a world-wide community they ONLY see their OWN interests. ALL with their OWN sovereignty.
-
teejay
and horrible and deplorable though it is/was WE dare call terrorism killing @3000 in the twin towers. what about @213,000 civilians?
Soon after 9/11, I called into a radio talk show and mentioned this very thing. Basically, the response was: well, we were at war, so it was okay.