The Book of Daniel

by SwedishChef 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Gizmo
    Gizmo

    One of my all time favorite characters on the Muppets was the Swedish Chef, so every time The SC here writes anything, the following is what I'm hearing...

    The following must be read as the Swedish Chef on the muppets would speak!

    Th' mesiah in th' vahse was th' high priess (anointed) who was killed by Antiochus three years af'er th' rededicashun." It's gittin' purdy deep in hyar. Better git th' shovels out. An' ah thougt th' whole "Daniel = poet" thin' thet seedy brought up was weak. Shet mah mouth! Th' Jews knowed who Messiah was a-gonna be. Isaiah 9:6 "Fo' unto us a chile is born an' raised, unto us a son is given: an' th' govment shall be upon his sh'der: an' his name shall be called Wonnerful, Counsello', Th' mighty God, Th' evahlastin' Pappy, Th' Prince of Peace." --This hyar is th' Messiah Also, ah hardly reckon thet a "high priest"'d be called the dawgoned-est holy in Dan 9:24. ah cain't believe varmints ackaully buy whut yo' jest said, pete. It's a true sign of desperashun on th' part of th' critics.

    ROFLMAO...very hard to take him seriously...LOL

  • heathen
    heathen

    i loved the muppets as well, lol. Really though this arguement about the authenticity of Daniel has gone on for centuries. Alot of bible scholars have wanted it removed but have not found any solid evidence that it is a fraud so there we have it .People that know way more than I do about determining these things have decided to leave it in .I think it's one of the more interesting books to read in the bible myself .The fact that his name is in Ezekiel only adds to the evidence of authenticity.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    edited because I'm into fluff now.

    Farkel

    Edited by - Farkel on 8 January 2003 1:30:40

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Dannybear,

    : and required a no-dozeto complete

    I'm surprised you didn't have to use some serious drugs to help you get through it! It is the biggest pile of crap I can imagine. Hell, I had to shoot heroin, morphene, opium, pot, speed, crank (whatever THAT is)., uppers, downers, coffee, Jack Daniels, and a whole bunch of other stuff just to get the energy to WRITE that crap without giving up before I was done!

    Can you imagine what crap the "prophet" Daniel had to take into his body to WRITE that stuff?

    Can you imagine what Freddie Franz had to do to INTERPRET that stuff? Was he was possibly getting high sucking out the INK in all those pens he carried in his shirt pocket?

    Heck. I don't know what Freddie was doing, but I know goofy crap when I see goofy crap.

    Farkel

    Edited by - Farkel on 8 January 2003 1:45:19

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I said I would detail my earlier comment and so I will dispite the belligerence displayed by swedishchef. The author of Daniel was writing at a time of unparallelled persecution of the Jews. Antiochus VI Epiphanes had initiated a pogrom of the jewish religion and culture in 168 BC. First I must repeat that a modern Christian reading of the passage has contributed to the confusion. So I will use the Jewish Publiation Society transltion. The context in chapter 9 is clearly about Isreal and specifically Jerusalem, the chapter opens...seventy years are repeated as the symbolic time of cleasing Isreal in Babylon. Actual time was 49-50 years.(587-538bc)as most scholars agree. The writer of Daniel himself uses this 49 year period as the first leg (7 weeks)of a period he calls 70 weeks (of years.) He declares that at the end of these 7 weeks an "anointed one, a prince" will appear.This is reasonably referring to high priest Joshuah and possible Zerubbabel as both are referred to as "anointed" or alternately the phrase can properly be understood to mean both...an anointed one and a prince. These were of course the key leaders at the time of return to "rebuild and restore" Jerusalem. The following 62 weeks are "troubled times" but Jerusalem is standing with "squares and conduit".Then it continues.."an anointed one will be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy( or desecrate) the city and the sanctuary."

    Who was this second anointed one? High priest Onias III was deposed and later killed (170 bc)by Antiochus and his henchmen. He desecratd the temple by sacrificing to Baal Shamen on the alter, (167 bc)he turned the city over to the Syrian garrison and may have even forcibly displaced the entire jewish population. The city itself was sacked in 168 BC. (1 macc.1:29).

    The "firm covenant with many for one week"(7 years) made by this invading prince(Antiochus)refers to the league with the hellenizing Jews referred to in 1 Macc.1:43. After 3 1/2 years the invading prince "shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease." According to 1 Macc 1:54-4:58 the temple was then out of service to the Jews from 15 Chislev 167 BC till 25 Chislev 164 BC. It was then that our author speaks of imminent exterminaion of these invading Syrians with their Prince. This last element is the only part that was written before the fact and the author had confidence that YHWH would see the rampant corruption and repeat a great cleansing destruction as he had done in Noah's and Moses' day (flood allusion in verse 26).

    The above time span of course do not equal exactly 490 years. This is not at all surprising as the author may not have known the precise year of exile into Babylon. Or he did know, the seventy weeks period was symbolic as was the seventy years period. 7 and 70, as has been often comented on here, were astrologically significant numbers and their use in these passages may be for that reason. The details of the text match actual history and therefore justify the explanation offered here. The Christian version of this "prophecy" was not in vogue for hundreds of years after Christ and then not in the form used today. The numbers must be played with and the text strained to make it appear to apply to Jesus.

    Edited by - peacefulpete on 8 January 2003 2:3:55

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Farkel,

    I forgot about Freddie's custom of carrying 'all those pens in his pocket'........LOL

    If there ever was a symbol for 'geek', it should be the picture of Frederick Franz. Although like you infer, one must somehow admire(?).....Nah.....how about acknowledge his fanatical tenacity.

    You had the assistance of our friend Jack D and other mind altering chems, but poor little Freddie could only rely on 'spirit direction'. Whatever spirit latched on to him, his 'spirit directed' gibberish is now day by day becoming a thorn in the side of WTBS.

    Very similar to Russell in so many ways. 1886 over 4 million copies of his book The Divine Plan of The Ages had been distributed. I wonder how many Babylong The Greatest Freddie get credit for?

    Anyway I keep going back and rereading your THEM paragraph again, and each time the reality sinks even deeper, (it helps when your slow) Jdubs are the most self serving, self aggrondizing, elitists, that ever appeared in the religious arena! No doubt.

    Danny

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Pete,

    You still avoided the problem of a high priest being called "Messiah" and the "most holy". A mere man cannot be called this. And I'm sure it is just coincidence that the Messiah truly did come as predicted (the weeks of years just happened to be exact, which on the other hand, the numbers don't work out on your side), He died, and Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed.

    If this passage were written after the events, there would be no question that this prophecy was pertaining to Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem.

    I don't buy it.





    Yuoo steell efueeded zee prublem ooff a heegh preeest beeeng celled "Messeeeh" und zee "must huly". A mere-a mun cunnut be-a celled thees. Und I'm soore-a it is joost cueencidence-a thet zee Messeeeh trooly deed cume-a es predeected (zee veeks ooff yeers joost heppened tu be-a ixect, vheech oon zee oozeer hund, zee noombers dun't vurk oooot oon yuoor seede-a), He-a deeed, und Jerooselem und zee temple-a ves destruyed.

    Iff thees pessege-a vere-a vreettee effter zee ifents, zeere-a vuoold be-a nu qooesshun thet thees pruphecy ves perteeening tu Chreest und zee destroocshun ooff Jerooselem.

    I dun't booy it.
    Bork Bork Bork!

    Edited by - SwedishChef on 8 January 2003 16:34:17

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    All this is plain enough, and if the words of Daniel had been written after the death of our Savior and the fall of Jerusalem, no one could fail to see that Jesus Christ is indicated. But if written in the exile this would be supernatural prediction, and hence the struggles of the critics to evade somehow the implications of the passage. To find some prominent person who was "cut off" prior to 163 B. C. was the first desideratum. The high priest Onias, who was murdered through the intrigues of rival candidates for his office, was the most suitable person. He was in no respect the Messiah, but having been anointed he might be made to serve. He died 171 B. C. The next step was to find an edict to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, 483 years before 171 B. C. That date was 654 B. C., during the reign of Manasseh, son of Hezekiah. No edict could be looked for there. But by deducting 49 years, the date was brought to 605 B. C., and as in that year Jeremiah had foretold (Jer. 25:9) the destruction of Jerusalem, perhaps this would do.
    There were two objections to this hypothesis; one, that a prophecy of desolation and ruin to a city and sanctuary then in existence was not a commandment to restore and rebuild, and the other objection was that this also was a supernatural prediction, and as such, offensive to the critical mind. Accordingly, recourse was had to the decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1-4) made in 536 B. C. But the decree of Cyrus authorized, not the building of Jerusalem, but the building of the temple. It is argued that forts and other defenses, including a city wall must have been intended by Cyrus, and this would be rebuilding Jerusalem; but the terms of the edict are given and no such defenses are mentioned. Nor is it likely that a wise man like Cyrus would have intended or permitted a fortified city to be built in a remote corner of his empire close to his enemy, Egypt, with which the enemy the Jews had frequently coquetted in previous years. At all events, the city was not restored until the twentieth year of Artaxerxes, as appears from Neh. 2:3, 8, 13, etc., where Nehemiah laments the defenseless condition of Jerusalem. Permission to build could safely be given then, for Egypt had been conquered and the loyalty of the Jews to Persia had been tested. Moreover, the date of Cyrus' decree does not meet the conditions. From 536 B. C. to 171 B. C. is 365 years and not 483. A "learned and pious Jews" would not have made such blunder in arithmetic in foisting a forgery upon his countrymen.
    There were four decrees concerning Jerusalem issued by the Persian court. The first under Cyrus, alluded to above, the second under Darius Hystaspis. (Ezra 6.) The third in the seventh year of Artaxerxes. (Ezra 7:12-26.) All of these concern the temple. The fourth in the twentieth year of Artaxeres was the only one to restore and rebuild a walled town.
    The Book of Daniel was translated into Greek about 123 B. C., forty years after the death of Antiochus Epiphanes. The prophecy of the Seventy Weeks troubled the Jewish translators. It foretold disaster to Jerusalem. City and sanctuary would be destroyed. They had been destroyed 464 years before by Nebuchadnezzar. Would they be destroyed again? The translators were unwilling to believe that such a calamity would occur again. Could they not make out that the words referred to the troubles under Antiochus? It was true that he had destroyed neither city nor temple, but he had polluted the temple. Perhaps this was equivalent to destruction. At all events they did not dare to say that another destruction of Jerusalem lay in the future.
    But there stood the words. From the going forth of commandment to restore Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince would be seven weeks and three score and two weeks, 483 years. They could do nothing with those words. They left them out, and mangled the rest of the passage to give obscurely the impression that the disasters there foretold were a thing of the past.
    This mistranslation of a Divine oracle to make it say what they wished it to say was a high-handed proceeding, but it did not prevent its fulfillment. At the time appointed Messiah cam and was crucified and Jerusalem fell. The critics' efforts to force some meaning, other than the prediction of Christ, into this prophecy is thus seen to be not without precedent.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    SwedishChef, why don't you write your own essay instead of quoting (ad verbatim, I might add) someone else's?

    Because he doesn't understand the arguments. Not only that, but he doesn't understand how to argue or how to deal with new information. He's the kind of person who makes the ignore feature worthwhile. Trust me, you won't miss much.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The explanation I offered does not fly in the face of reason, yours does by presuming supernatural soothsaying. My explanation is consistant with the known apocalyptic religious environment of the time and the very real anachonisms in the book. Your favored interpretation while clever dismisses all the evidence recognized by mainstream secular and religious scholarship. As well as adding a word here and there such as "THE" messiah (anointed). Do not get hung up on exact phraseology as much is left to the translators. If you read these passages in a Jewish translation it becomes obvious how much the meaning can be altered by honest yet differently oriented translators. Would a God be so poor at communicating?

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