JW's -- Is Jesus your Mediator?

by UnDisfellowshipped 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Here are a few relevant quotes:

    And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovahs organization for salvation WT 11/15/81

    To keep in relationship with Our Savior, God, the great crowd needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites. WT 11/15/79

    So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the mediator only for anointed ChristiansThe great crowd of other sheep that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However by associating with the little flock of those yet in that covenant they come under the benefits that flow from that new covenant. WT 4/1/79

    They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ. WT 11/15/79

    However for God to answer our prayers for his spirit we must meet his conditions, among which is that we must recognize the visible channel he is using for that very purpose. WT 7/1/65

    In my opinion in the WT has clearly placed itself in Jesus' chair. This entirely unscriptural position was the straw that broke the camel's back for my wife and myself.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Thanks everyone for your great comments and Quotes!

    Here are some more Quotes I got from http://Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com and also from http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/dicwtdocs/newcovenant.html

    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1979 Issue, Page 31 ***

    Questions from Readers

    Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?

    The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

    Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man's Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant."
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, December 15th 1982 Issue, Page 19 ***

    "Down to the spring of 1935 the dedicated, baptized witnesses of Jehovah had entertained in true faith the 'one hope' that was set before them in Ephesians 4:4-6, as follows: 'One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.' But in that memorable year of 1935, at the convention held in Washington, D.C., the 'great multitude,' as visualized at Revelation 7:9-17 (Authorized Version), was identified as being composed of the Fine Shepherd's 'other sheep' of John 10:16."
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1991 Issue, Pages 15-20 ***

    "You Were Bought With a Price"

    8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

    [...]

    11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:21.
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 1st 1998 Issue, Pages 20-22 ***

    "The Other Sheep and the New Covenant"

    10 "Everyone" who "exercises faith in the Son" will benefit from the ransom sacrifice. (John 3:16, 36) Paul said: "The Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for their salvation." (Hebrews 9:28) Today, those earnestly looking for Jesus include surviving anointed Christians of the Israel of God and the millions making up the great crowd, who also have an everlasting inheritance. Both classes thank God for the new covenant and for the life-giving blessings associated with it, including the greater Atonement Day and the ministry of the High Priest, Jesus, in the heavenly Most Holy.

    [...]

    13 What happens when the last of the 144,000 realize their heavenly hope? Will the new covenant cease to apply? At that time, there will be on earth no remaining member of the Israel of God. All participants in the covenant will be with Jesus "in the kingdom of [his] Father." (Matthew 26:29) But we remember Paul's words in his letter to the Hebrews: "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant." (Hebrews 13:20; Isaiah 55:3) In what sense is the new covenant everlasting?
    ----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, March 15th 1954 Issue, Page 187 ***

    "Who may partake of the Lord's evening meal? All sincere Christians? No. Why not? Because the context of the record of Jesus' institution of the Memorial as well as the testimony of other scriptures show that it is limited to those who have the hope of sharing heavenly glory with Jesus Christ, which number the Scriptures show to be limited to 144,000. ... All men of good will, however, are welcome and should come and observe the celebration. How often and when should the Lord's evening meal be celebrated?

    Regardless of how often others may profess to do so, there is no Scriptural warrant for doing so more than once a year, even as the Passover, commemorating the deliverance from Egypt, was observed once a year, and that on the night of their deliverance, Nisan 14. Since Jesus instituted his evening meal on the night of Nisan 14, it is but fitting that we continue to celebrate it on the same date."
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1960 Issue, Page 199 ***

    "The Memorial's unique feature is the passing of the unleavened bread and red wine to all in attendance. But do all in attendance partake of them? No; in fact, in many if not in most instances today no one will partake. Why is that? Because the Scriptures show that Jesus instituted the Memorial of his death with those with whom he had made a covenant for his heavenly kingdom"
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1985 Issue, Page 17 ***

    "There is only a remnant of such spiritual sons now living, and these are the ones who properly partake of the emblems. This, then, accounts for the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses being observers and not partakers."

  • TheOldHippie
    TheOldHippie

    I'm one of the other sheep, one of the great crowd - and Jesus is my Mediator. No way it can be any different.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Okay so there is controversy over who is the mediator. I suspect we can agree that the bible is fairly clear the Jesus as thee Christ was. Next question, what does mediation mean in biblical context? Are there extra-biblical text that shed light on the concept? Is this an idea that is original with Christianity?

    caveman

  • eyeslice
    eyeslice

    This issue is one of many of the JW doctrines that are flawed. There is no room for theological debate in a religion that is totally controlled by the center.

    The sad thing is the average JW is blissfully unaware, or simply not concerned, of such doctrinal anomalies.

    Eyeslice

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Thank You Ozzie!!! I just went through and read those Threads -- very good information!

    Here are some of most confusing parts of Watchtower Doctrine on Jesus as the Mediator for the 144,000:

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and the 144,000 "Anointed Ones" ONLY.

    Why then does the "Great Crowd of Other Sheep" pray to Jehovah in the Name of Jesus Christ?

    The "Great Crowd" should pray in the name of the "144,000", and then the "144,000" should pray to Jehovah in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Oh, and this is all Bible-Based(TM).

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator for the "Anointed Ones".

    But, the Watchtower Society also teaches that JW's SHOULD NEVER pray TO Jesus Christ.

    So, in order for Jesus to mediate the prayers of the "Anointed" to Jehovah, here's how it works:

    The "Anointed Ones" pray to Jehovah through the Name of Jesus, then Jehovah receives the prayer and gives the prayer to Jesus, so Jesus can then mediate the prayer back to Jehovah.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Undisfellowshipped:

    I guess we'll never understand it once our eyes have been "opened" to the real Truth!!

    I know for Mrs Ozzie and I, we feel liberated by the knowledge that Jesus is indeed our mediator and that there is no "channel" that has to qualify us to speak to Him.

    Strangely too, Mrs Ozzie always believed that Jesus was her mediator. It was when she learned that the WTS taught otherwise, that she confirmed her decision to quit the Borg.

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • Gizmo
    Gizmo

    Ok I have a questionbased on the following

    *** The Watchtower, Issue, Pages 15-20 ***

    "You Were Bought With a Price"

    8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

    This is purely a logistics question.

    After the New Covenant was brought in, in the first century, every person becoming a follower of Christ, and accepting Him as The son of God would have in affect been made part of the New Covenant, therefore being a member of the FDS (144,000).

    How many Christians would have amassed, lets say until the apostle John died? Even better lets say the first 300 years after the covenant was born?

    Surely there would have to have been at least 144,000 faithful Christians partaking of the emblems!

    If the above statement is true, all those early Christians are now in heaven, well at least 144,000 of them. As established Kings and Priests in heaven next to Christ, so are we to understand that some of those 144,000 are dropping away now, that they are in heaven with Christ, and therefore need topping up every now and then?

    I dont know if I worded this correctly so that you can understand what Im getting at, but in short, wouldnt have all the 144,000 positions next to Christ been filled LONG before the (b)org came into existence? Or did Christ have to wait till the 19 th century?

    Ok I throw this question open to all ye wise ones :)

    edited cos of formatting glich

    Edited by - gizmo on 12 January 2003 21:16:50

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Undif:

    Try this post from May, 2001:

    Just how many true anointed Christians are buried in the catacombs beneath the ancient Rome streets?

    This number is crucial to an understanding of the Witness teaching that only 144,000 have the heavenly calling. The Witnesses maintain that this literal interpretation of the number 144,000 means that for the great majority (great crowd) of present-day Witnesses, they are unable to aspire to a uniting with their Lord in heaven. This number of 144,000 was complete, according to the Witnesses, by the year 1935. Most of this number comprise first-century Christians as well as those associated with C T Russells Bible Students and early twentieth century Jehovahs Witnesses. Only a sprinkling of true Christians were to be found in the intervening centuries.

    Yet the Roman catacombs contain the remains of hundreds of thousands of Christian martyrs from the early Christian church. The book: Christian Rome, Early Christian Rome Catacombs and Basilicas" by Philippe Pergola (Published by Vision S.r.l. (Italy) states: "The oldest concrete evidence concerning the Roman martyrs and the early Roman Christians is preserved in eloquent abundance in the Roman catacombs." The largest of these, San Callista, with nearly 22 km of subterranean paths on 4 levels contains the remains of 500,000 Christians. Other catacombs are San Sebastiano, said to be the temporary home for the bodies of the apostles Peter and Paul , and Santa Domitilla.

    Clearly there is a numerical discrepancy between the archaeological evidence and the Witness teaching.

    The WTBTS has changed its approach to its understanding of what the catacombs represent.

    The Watchtower magazine in 1957 ran an article Testimony of the Catacombs which included three main sub-headings Places of Refuge, Reflection of Christian Belief, and Apostasy. It stated that this mode of burial (in catacombs) was adopted by the Christian community, many of whom had themselves been JewsIn some instances those who became Christians opened their property to the use of others of the Christian faith. The article then states that prominent (Christian) martyr(s) (were) buried there.

    The catacombs became places of refuge for, as the article states, During times of severe persecution the endless dark corridors of the catacombs provided places of refuge from the Romans. Because of the Roman feeling of veneration for their dead, places of burial were relatively safe from invasion, even by irate persecutors, and were even protected by law. While the catacombs were not constructed for refuge, but rather for burial, they served both purposes. Even congregational assemblies could be held there with a measure of security.

    Do the catacombs contain the resting places of true Christians? The article states: Do the catacombs with their religious art shed light on other Christian beliefs? Yes, indeed, and they witness that much of the present-day dogma of Christendom was not adhered to by early Christians. For example, there were no venerated crucifixes. Even the cross is rarely found.

    And would we expect it otherwise when the Christians abhorred the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors? In fact, this total lack of idols and relics among the Christians is what gave rise to the charge of atheism lodged against them by the Roman world.
    Prominent among both early and later paintings in the catacombs are the repeated portrayals of scenes from all parts of the Bible. One cannot look upon these expressive memorials of the earliest Christian art without being convinced that the Church of the first three centuries was not only thoroughly familiar with the Scriptures, and that it completed its collection of the canon at a very early date, but that its mind was imbued with an intense love of the Bible and a perception of an acquaintance with every part as a necessity for every class of believers. . . . The very catacomb rises as a witness against the intentional and continued hiding of the word of God from the people.History of the Christian Church, by Hurst.

    The article seems to indicate that the apostasy arrived much later: Although it has been noted that the catacombs provided places of refuge and assembly during times of persecution, it is now apparent that they did not fall into disuse when the persecution let up. There was a return to the catacombs as places of worship when the persecution ended, but this time for a worship quite different from that practiced by the earlier Christians.

    In more recent times the WTBTS has published a different slant on the catacombs (Awake! 1995 August 8, pages 16-20 The Catacombs-What Were They?) This article gives the impression that very few true Christians were buried in the catacombs. It appears that during the first century, Roman Christians did not possess their own cemeteries but buried their dead alongside pagans. Halfway through the second century, when professed Christians had already begun to be influenced by pagan thought, wealthy converts made property available for Christian cemeteries.

    And how old are the catacombs? According to the article: The oldest go back to the middle of the second century C.E., and the most recent to about 400 C.E. With regard to inscriptions found there, the article states: Clearly, the faithful in Rome were no longer acting in harmony with the knowledge transmitted by Jesus true disciples.

    And to ensure that the point has been made, the article re-states this with: Can these be the remains of true Christianity? Hardly.

    Thus the mathematical integrity of 144,000 anointed Christians is protected. But, is it? What do you think?

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=5407&site=3

    Cheers,

    Ozzie

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