by LoneWolf 33 Replies latest jw friends
Do you think black people have been harmed by being in America? How many would trade places with the those in Africa? Which group of blacks have the better living conditions? I see nothing in the heritage of Africans to be proud of in America. Maybe they should be a little thankful for being here.
Ken P.
Well, I wanted to comment on the first installment. . . but I saw that happyout had said pretty much everything that I was thinking so there's no need to say it all over again. Her situation was very similar to mine.
I would like to comment on Undecided's post though:
Do you think black people have been harmed by being in America? How many would trade places with the those in Africa? Which group of blacks have the better living conditions? I see nothing in the heritage of Africans to be proud of in America. Maybe they should be a little thankful for being here.
Well, hun think of it this way. What if we had been able to immigrate over to this country just like Europeans, Asians and others? Then maybe things would be better. I am thankful that I live quite well but I think that the African-American plight is not as good as others that came here of their free will. Geez, are we to be thankful to the slave traders and slave owners? Besides, many Black Americans live far worse than many Africans. Plus, the slaves had their families torn apart, and their livelihood beaten out of them.
Edited by - StinkyPantz on 20 January 2003 18:27:13
Do you think black people have been harmed by being in America? How many would trade places with the those in Africa? Which group of blacks have the better living conditions? I see nothing in the heritage of Africans to be proud of in America. Maybe they should be a little thankful for being here.Ken P.
The face of ignorance has spoken. I compare this to those people who think the slaves "didn't have it soo bad because they were considered property".
they were also being mentally conditioned to believe they were inferior
Sounds like a JW........and a female
and they were taught to mistrust and demean one another
Sounds like a JW publisher
They were often forced to fight amongst themselves for meager food and shelter, they were rewarded to turning one another in for "crimes" (like trying to learn to read and write, trying to escape, etc)
Sounds like the Irish, Italians, Greeks, Pols, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiians, Native Americans, Latios,.....
Blacks in America also have a unique loss that does not affect any other race. They have no "language". With all other minorities, hispanic, asian, native american, etc. there is a language that can be used as a unifying factor. Blacks do not have this, and it has destroyed the sense of culture that so often rescues the downtrodden. It is difficult to create a sense of pride and history where there is no unifying factor.
My relatives came here at the turn of the century. They suffered all of the above. They cleaned toilets, never forgetting that they were "inferior." They learned the language of north America....English. They learned that education was a key to unlocking doors. (I am the first one, on either side of my family to graduate college) Most only had 9th grade educations.
They never spoke the language from their homeland because they tried to blend into society...the melting pot. They have no language. Just because someone has darker skin than a caucasian does not mean they are entitled to another "language."
I have no sense of culture from my family. I have no pride or history to be a unifying factor with any other Irish, Swedish, Polish, Russian person. Why? Because I was robbed of it...as were my ancestors.
My ancestors never put their hand out asking for something they did not work for. They did not demand that society be nice to them. They did not sue when they were called Pollack. They did not scream "racism" when someone did not hire them because they did not speak English.
They just tried to do the best they could, with their limited resources, and they accepted responsibiltiy for their situation.
All of them died poor. However, they had pride in knowing that they did not ask for a handout from society to improve their lot.
As noted above, forcing reparations on the American public will go a long way towards pushing each side farther apart.
Teenyuck-
Your family sounded like they had a hard time but surely you can see the difference between their plight and the slaves plight. You family cleaned toilets yes, but they got paid for it and still got to go home to their families. Also, they didn't need hand outs? Well, like I said before they got paid for their work. Also, they came here because they wanted to not because they were sold and shipped off.
You say that education is the key to unlocking doors, but even then Blacks are sometimes stifled. I think someone mentioned this earlier but their was a recent study done by a university where they sent out resumes to various companies and the only differences were in the names. The qualifications were the same. They had names such as Tyrone, Ebony, and Aisha and these ethnic names recieved half as many call backs as the Anglo sounding names: Emily, Jessica, Fred. So you see Blacks still have to work a lot harder even if they have an education. So for some this may be a key that opens tons of doors, but for others, they find more barriers behind these doors.
They came here of their own free will. When they got here after a generation or so they were recognized for the most part as Americans. For most of the nationalities mentioned in teenyucks post after a few years it was simply a matter of changing the spelling and punctuation of their names that gave them relief from any persecution they encountered, if they encountered any at all.
This topic is under discussion on Donahue right now. Interesting.
The great difference is after a generation, usually just one, your family members shed whatever was holding them back. Be it a name, ethnic tradtions, or language in order to blend in. Often the children of immigrants are so well assimilated their ethnic orgins become un-noticable.
How do you change your skin color?
Often the people who have the most trouble with affirmative-action, and have trouble comprehending that yes "white previlage" does infact exisit, are lower middle class, and working class people. The very same group of people who should be fighting aginst such prejudices, because similar prejudices are forced upon them by upper classes of society. Most seem to have an attitude of "my family pulled themselves up by their boot straps, and they can too". So sometimes it's hard for them to relate. I am not trying to make fun of or belittle anyone here, hell I used to hold this same opinion myself...the whole "If I can do it, so can they, all it takes is hard work and determination" mantra that gets drilled into our heads as the rhetoric of the American Dream.
But recently I have read a few essays and articles that changed my mind. If you can find it, or perhaps any other work by Christine Sleeter, I highly recommend her article entitled "Teaching Whites About Racism". Or "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh.
McIntosh compiled a list of how DAILY she is at more of an advantage because of her skin color. It's intersting, and I want to highlight some of it in my post...
I thought those were interesting and worth posting. McIntosh had some other powerful insights I would encourage people to read about.
I am not saying reparations are the answer. I am off topic here, but I felt some of what was said by a few posters needed to be addressed. It's interesting food for thought. Sometimes we forget the simplicities that make us feel comfortable within society.
I think, on a day that asks us to remember a great man--who not only fought against racial injustice, but economic injustice, and political injustice and who faught for peace at all times, especially in times of war, that we consider how far we have come, and how much further we can go. I think too many times we think racisim is out and out violence and slurs on a group, and that those incidents are "behind us". Nothing could be further from the truth. If racisim were obvious we could have wiped it out long ago. Again, like the list above it's the little things that hold us back and snowball into a bigger issue that is racisim.
Ok I am done ranting...back to the topic at hand...
I believe that if the government of this country attempts to confiscate the income of one racial group to give to another racial group for any reason, it will spell violence on the one hand that will put the sixties to shame, and on the other hand will spell the end of this country as we know it. -- Francois
As I said in the thread from a year and a half ago (referenced previously), at the risk of getting banned: American taxpayers are already being taxed in order to pay a national group (Israel) in compensation for what happened to them in nazi Germany to the tune of $5 billion/yr. I've seen little rioting in the streets.
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Teenyuck,
Tell me... in the U.S., how many Polish people (mostly teen and adult males) were lynched? How many Polish men suffered the emasculation that Black men suffered for three centuries in the Deep South? Ever hear stories of Polish men having their wives and daughters kidnapped, gang-raped, and dumped back on their front yard? Ever hear of a Polish person having their house burnt down because the man of the house tried to vote? I have. *shrugging shoulders*
I have the utmost respect for your relatives that worked to build a life for themselves here; learning English; discovering that "education was a key to unlocking doors"; not wanting a handout but only for a chance to blend in. That's wonderful. It's especially wonderful to read that they accepted responsibility for their situation.
None of these issues correlate whatsoever to the experience of Africans, however. Those of European descent were able to blend in (unlike Negroes who never could -- for obvious reasons). They were allowed/required to send their children to school (unlike Negroes who learned to read and write under the penalty of a public lynching). Your near ancestors were encouraged to learn English whilst Africans were purposely kept uneducated by governmental decree and police action. All too often, the entire culture that Black Americans were forced to live under was a "situation" over which they had absolutely NO control. That Blacks are still here and viable is nothing less than a miracle, IMO.
I could go on but basically, Blacks are just like your folks but had/have to work to get around a deck stacked heavily against them. This is likely to surprise you, but most Blacks didn't ask then and don't ask now for a handout, either. They (we) just want a fair shake and a level playing field. Realizing this is America though, I'm not holding my breath.
I love the points made by Peggy McIntosh. It's so easy to overlook the daily issues that so many blacks face. I work in a mostly white environment, and I can't tell you how many times people have asked me "why do black people .....". It used to really irritate me, now I just joke about it. I say something like "I lost the last election, so I'm no longer able to speak on behalf of my race". I have never once thought to ask a white person, "why do white people ...." because I pretty much assume each individual does things for their own unique reasons. And the people the media presents as "black leaders". PLEASE! I don't agree with most of what Louis Farrakhan, Jessie Jackson, or Al Sharpton say, yet year after year, the media presents them as "black leaders". The media also talks about problems within the "black community". I have been in "black communities", and, at least in Los Angeles, these areas are no longer mainly black. There are a lot of latinos, asians, and some whites. However, it's still the "black community", I guess because it's poor.
All that aside, back to the issue of reparations, again, NO, I don't agree with the idea as has been presented. However, I do feel that too many people make light of the very real plight of black americans, and try to use the same tired labels (lazy, victims, looking for a handout) to describe an entire group of people, when in reality it applies to very few of them. Yes, there are blacks who sit back and collect welfare, feeling that the government owes them something. Yes there are blacks that victimize other blacks through violence, selling drugs, etc. But you know what? Those people, in my experience, are a minority. Most black people that I know (and I sure as hell don't know every one of them) are trying to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. But if you take even a cursory look at what's going on in America, you will see that the cards are still stacked against them. All the lawsuits that have been won because of discriminatory practices are no anomaly. And those are just the cases that were won and publicized. It's hard to explain the everyday issue of people treating you as different. If you are not a minority, you will probably never understand that feeling of being an outsider. And you don't have to understand, but you should at least recognize that it exists, and that the overt and covert racism is continuing to damage the psyche of an important group in America. You wouldn't tell an abused woman to "get over it", would you? I hope not. And yet, that's the blase attitude of so many people. The issue here is, how to correct a problem that is still ongoing. I agree, there needs to be pride taught, and self-esteem building done so that people will feel they can make it without being held back.
