Christ and OT prophecy

by SwedishChef 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • gumby
    gumby

    Nobody ever answered the question.......How come Jesus was NEVER refered to as Immanual. It was Rabbi and teacher, and lord.......never was he called Immanuel or with us is God.

    Besides......even if you could prove he existed........where is he? When is he comin? How come he's waiting so long? Ahh yes.......he wants to wait till all the chosen ones have been born so he can have his bride and but while he waits..........billions more are born who will mostly all die.

    Your arguments if they could be won, never answers this does it?

    No matter how you slice it, God, Jesus, both, ......are going to wipe out the very thing they created.........Losers!!!!!!!!!! (The bible god that is)

    Gumby

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Gumby,

    Nobody ever answered the question.......How come Jesus was NEVER refered to as Immanual.

    Gumby, this is a very elementary question. Immanuel is a name describing Jesus. For Jesus literally was "God with us". He was God and man at the same time. Isaiah 9:6 says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    Why not just ask why His name wasn't "Wonderful" or "Counsellor"? This passage says thats what the Messiah's name would be. Of course, Christ's actual name is not "Wonderful", these names describe the person that is Jesus Christ.

    Besides......even if you could prove he existed........where is he? When is he comin? How come he's waiting so long? Ahh yes.......he wants to wait till all the chosen ones have been born so he can have his bride and but while he waits..........billions more are born who will mostly all die.
    I believe I've given you the Biblical answer to this question. When the "fulness of the Gentiles come in". Whether or not you like it is a different matter.

    John 14:1-3,16-18 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also....And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

  • rem
    rem
    Gumby, this is a very elementary question. Immanuel is a name describing Jesus. For Jesus literally was "God with us".

    So basically for the prophecy to come true any wannabe messiah could be born of a young woman, and some people would use a generic description of "God is with us" to describe him. This doesn't sound very prophetic as it is too general to point to any one potential messiah. As Mulan brought out, this prophecy could have been fulfilled by a number of people, including any fake messiah, since there is nothing specific about it.

    Of course there is still no evidence that the scripture in question really is a messianic prophecy. Add to that the fact that there is no corroborating external evidence that the alleged prophecy was fulfilled anyway.

    rem

  • ISP
    ISP

    Don't forget the gospels were put together in the second century! Hmmm.......any surprise they got some 'fulfillments'?!

    ISP

  • ISP
    ISP

    An ancient Mithraic inscriptions reads "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." according to J. Godwin's "Mystery Religions in the Ancient World" (1981) page 28.

    Written centuries later, the Gospel of John has Jesus say "Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have not life in yourselves. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live in me and I in him." (John 6:53,56).

    Coincidence? I think not.

    ISP

  • ISP
    ISP

    Worth doing some research on stuff......

    Check this out!

    http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras4.htm

    ISP

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Rem,

    By the same token any Messiah wannabe can say that his name is Immanuel. If this passage literally meant Messiah's name would be Immanuel, than every quack in history would be getting up calling himself by that name.


    Almah, so far as known, never meant "young married woman"; and since the presumption in common law and usage was and is, that ever almah is virgin and virtuous, until she is proven not to be, we have a right to assume that Rebecca and the almah of Is 7:14 and all other alamahs were virgin, until and unless it shall be proven that they were not. - R. Dick Wilson

    Erudite scholar J. Gresham Machen, in "The Virgin Birth of Christ", comes to the same conclusion: "There is not place among the seven occurrences of almah in the Old Testament where the word is clearly used of a woman who is not a virgin. It may readily be admitted that almah does not actually indicate virginity, as does bethulah; it means rather 'a young woman of marriageable age.' But on the other hand one may well doubt, in view of the usage, whether it was a natural word to use of anyone who was not in point of fact a virgin."

    Willis J. Beecher, in his classic essay "The Prophecy of the Virgin Mother," shares the same assessment: "The Hebrew lexicons tell us that the word almah, here translated virgin, may denote any mature woman, whether a virgin or not. So far as its derivation is concerned, this is undoubtedly the case; but in biblical usage, the word denotes virgin in every case where its meaning can e determined."

    The Nature of the Sign,

    In this context the sign should be understood as a highly unusual event, something only God could do, a miracle. As John Martin notes, the sign here was to be "an attesting miracle that would confirm God's word." A. Barnes concurs, stating that the sign in this context is "a miracle wrought in attestation of a Divine promise or message."

    Since Ahaz refused to come up with a sign for God to perform, God Himself tells what the sign will be. It's reasonable to conclude that when God comes up with His own sign, that it would be miraculous as well.

    It is also important to notice that the sign is directed to "you" (plural) and is not evidently directed to Ahaz who rejected the first offer. Isaiah said: "Hear ye now, O house of David" and it is apparent that the plural "you" in v. 14, is to be connected to its antecedent "ye" in v. 13. Since the context tells us that the dynasty of David is what is at stake in the impending invasion, it would seem proper to interpret the plural "you" as the "house of David" which is the recipient of the sign.

    Now a woman becoming pregnant through natural means could not possibly fit the criteria for a supernatural sign.

    John Calvin once said "What a wonderful thing did the prophet say, if he spoke of a young woman who conceived through intercourse with a man?...Let us suppose that it denotes a young woman who should become pregnant in the ordinary course of nature; everybody sees that it would have been silly and contemptible for the prophet, after having said that he was about to speak about something strange and uncommon to add 'a young woman shall conceive.'"

    A closer examination of some key words in Isaiah 7:14 bears out Calvin's observation. The Hebrew word h~r~h, which is translated "conceive" in Isaiah is "neither a verb nor participle, but a feminine adjective connected with an active participle ('bearing') and denotes that the scene is present to the prophet's view". This means that the word and tense usage are similar to what the Angel of the Lord told Hagar in the wilderness centuries earlier: "Behold, you are with child, / And you shall bear a son" (Gen 16:11). In short, Isaiah 7:14 would be better translated, "Behold, the virgin is pregnant and will bear a Son." Edward Hindson comments:

    It is quite obvious that the verbal time [of h~r~h] indicated here should be taken as a present tense....The concept of the time element involved is very important to the interpretation of the passage. If the word almah means "virgin" and if this almah is already pregnant and about to bear a son, then, the girl is still a virgin, even though she is a mother. Consider the contradiction if this passage is not referring to the only virgin birth in history--that of Jesus Christ. The virgin is pregnant! How can she still be a virgin and be pregnant at the same time? The implication is that this child is to be miraculously born without a father and despite the pregnancy, this mother is still considered to be a virgin. The word almah ("virgin") implies a present state of virginity just as the word h~r~h implies a present state of pregnancy. If the verbal action were in the future tense there would be no guarantee that the virgin who would (in the future) bear a son, would still be a virgin, and not a wife. But if a "virgin" "is with child" and is obviously both a virgin and a mother, we cannot escape the conclusion that this is a picture of the virgin birth.

    The Greek word for virgin is parthenos, the Latin word is virgo, and one of the Hebrew words frequently used is betf~h (though whether betfl~h means "virgin" or not must be determined by the context in which it appears). R. Dick Wilson observes that "the LXX version of Is 7:14, made about 200 B.C., Matthew 1:3, from the first century A.D., the Syriac Peshitto, from the second century A.D., and Jerome's Latin Vulgate, from about A.D. 400, all render almah by parthenos (virgin) or its equivalents bethula and virgo....Since the LXX version was made in the case of.....Isaiah 200 years B.C., it is to be presumed that their rendering of alm ah by parthenos is....Is 7:14 was in their minds a justifiable rendering. So far as we have nay evidence, the citation of Is 7:1 in Matt 1:23 is thus justified by the Jewish interpretation up to the time when Matthew was written.

    Or, as Henry Morris states it, "The scholars who translated the Old Testament into the Greek Septuagint version used the standard Greek word 'virgin' in translating Isaiah 7:14. So did Matthew when he quoted this prophecy a being fulfilled in the virgin birth of Christ."

    B. Witherington III agrees, stating, "It is probably correct to say that if almah did not normally have overtones of virginity, it is difficult if not impossible to see why the translators of the LXX used parthenos as the Greek equivalent.

    The evidence, therefore, supporting the view that the almah is Isaiah's prophecy is a young virgin woman is definitive and conclusive. No other understanding does justice to the word or its literary, social, or historical context.

  • rem
    rem

    LOL

    It's funny to watch bibolators twist the clear reading of scriptures into tortured exegesis to try and support their claims of prophecy. Notice they many weasel words liberally used throughout the essay Swedish Chef cut and pasted. The words 'seems' and 'may' are used to hide the fact that the whole prophecy theory is nothing more than wishful thinking lacking evidence.

    Note that Swedish Chef still could not find a source that shows that almah must mean virgin. Again, if this was a necessary component of the prophecy, then why was not the actual word for virgin used?

    All I see here is a lot of speculation. Unfortunately the burden of proof is on those who make the extraordinary claim that the bible contains fulfilled prophecy. So far, no evidence is forthcoming.

    rem

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Rem,

    There is no twisting of Scripture on the part of the apologists. They are simply comparing Scripture with Scripture, as the Bible says to do. These were all valid points. You are no Hebrew scholar, and you were not living at the time of Isaiah, therefore you have no idea the definitions that certain words had taken on. And according to the Bible, it had taken on a meaning of virginity.

    "then why was not the actual word for virgin used?"

    If I was a Hebrew living around 2,600 years ago, I could probably tell you the answer to that. The word used probably had overtones of virginity.

    Its obvious you've made your decision and I respect that, no point in bickering on further. You should try showing respect to the Bible believer's viewpoint as well.

    I believe this conversation is over.

  • seedy3
    seedy3
    "You" in verse 14 is plural.

    Umm SwedishChef, where do you get that information?

    In reading the prior verses, God asked Ahaz to ask for a sign and Ahaz refused.

    7:10
    Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
    11.
    Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
    12.
    But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD .

    Looks to me like he is speaking directly to Ahaz and not to any plural group.

    I tired to look up the usage of the word "you" but the lexicon does not describe it.

    So I would be interested to know where you got your info, that the "you" is Plural here.

    However I do notice that verse 13 does go into a plural saying "O house of David", But that still does not address that he was speaking to Ahaz.

    Seedy

    Edited by - seedy3 on 20 January 2003 22:44:24

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