Need help - what is the truth...

confuzcious

Hey guys,

I am a Witness that is no longer going to meetings.

But I tell you what, I'm scared to death.

I'm really "limping on two decisions."

What would you guys say is the one "scriptural" reason why YOU left the truth.

Thanks.

Gene

First of all, I don't feel like I left "the truth" but instead found it. My main reason for leaving was finding this excerpt from a judicial meeting. It made way too much sense to ignore. BTW it's found at www.disfellowshipped.com:

Ive understood the Bibles view of false prophecy as listed here Deuteronomy 18: 20-22,

"However the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word I have not commanded him to speak, that prophet must die. In case you should say in your heart how shall we know a word that Jehovah has not spoken? When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened of him."

Ezekiel 14:10

"Both the prophet and the one who consults him will get the same punishment."

Matthew 24:24

" For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will do wonderful miracles so that if it were possible even Gods chosen ones would be deceived. See I have warned you, if someone has said messiah has returned or that he is hiding at a certain place, dont believe it."

And Revelation as well speaks of the false prophet. Here I just listed Gods historic means of communication:

" In the past God spoke to our ancestors many times and many ways through the prophets but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son" Hebrews 1:1-2

And Galatians:

" Let me tell you my brothers the Gospel I preach is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man nor did anyone teach it to me, it was Jesus Christ himself who revealed it to me."

And so this is my position, Ive asked the question:

How does the Watchtowers 120 years of history as Gods "channel of communication" compare with Gods Historic method of communication as evident in the Bible?

If you turn the page youll see that the Watchtower does claim to be: (Reading the title of the Watchtower of 5/15/55)

"Jehovahs channel of communication,"

even stating that theres:

"overwhelming evidence."

This is interesting on page 3, 1998

"God spoke to his people through Moses and other prophets and Jehovah spoke to them through his Son Jesus Christ. Today we also have the Faithful and Discreet slave who gives us the food at the proper time, thus God is still speaking."

So they do consider themselves in that category. I thought that this was interesting to bring out to show that the witnesses do claim to be a prophet.

So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who was this prophet, this prophet was not one man but a body of men and woman. It was a small group of footstep followers known at that time as the International Bible Students. Today theyre known as Jehovahs Christian Witnesses. Of course its easy to say that this group acts as a prophet of God, its another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record, what does it show?

So thats quite an invitation. And this is the last thing. (Reading the title of Awake! 10/8/68 pg. 23)

"A time to lift up your head in confident hope"

"True there have been those in times past who predicted an end to the world even announcing a specific date, yet nothing happened, the end did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fulfillment of Bible prophecy, Missing from such people were Gods truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them."

Now Im not going to share all this stuff but I would like to read a couple of things.

In 1889:

"Be not surprised then when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the kingdom of God has already begun that its pointed out In prophecy as do to begin the exercise of power in AD 1878. And that the battle of the great day of God almighty which will end in AD 1914 with the complete overthrow of earths present rulership has already commenced."

In 1889 they said:

" In the coming 26 years all present Governments will be overthrown and dissolved."

1894 ,Ill go half way down the page:

" the old is quickly passing and the new is coming in. Now in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy are readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would, they are we believe Gods dates not ours. But bare in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of time of trouble."

Next page, 1902:

"In view of the strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the gentiles we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of AD 1914."

In 1908:

" True it is expecting great things to claim as we do that within the coming 26 years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."

Then we see here in 1914 that they start to backstroke:

"Even if the time of our change should not come within 10 years what more should we ask? Are we not a blessed happy people? Is not our God faithful? If anyone knows anything better let him take it. If any of you ever find anything better we hope youll tell us"

1915:

" The present day war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the scriptures. It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have long oppressed he people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war can not last much longer until revolutions shall break out."

1915:

"in view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the gentiles we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished near the end of AD 1915."

1915 again:

" be not surprised then when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the kingdom of God has already begun that its pointed out in prophecy as do to begin the exercise of power in AD 1878. And that the battle of the great day of God almighty which will end in AD 1915."

Back down to 1915 again:

"The gentile times prove that the present governments must all be overturned by AD 1915."

At the bottom of the page we see in 1917:

"there shall be no slip up, Abraham should enter on the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925."

1917:

"The spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater than that experienced in 1914. The travail that is coming to be upon nominal Zion Christendom Babylon, it will be a great and sore affliction."

1917:

"And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will fall in the fall of 1920. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy."

1917:

"Pastor Russells mission in large part was to advise Christendom of its impending end in the time of the world wide trouble it is the divine judgment upon the nations. There will be no chance of escaping from destruction. The trouble is due to the dawning of the day of Christ, the millennium. It is the day of vengeance, which began the world war of 1914, which will break out like a furious morning storm in 1918."

1917:

" Also in the year 1918 when God destroys the Churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the down fall of Christianity."

1917, I thought this was interesting because this has always been the tone taken with anyone not within the watchtower:

" As the fleshly minded apostates from Christianity siding with the radicals and the revolutionaries will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendoms after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement. It shall be utterly destroyed."

1918:

"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old. Particularly those named by the apostle in Hebrews 11 to the condition of human perfection."

It was in 1919 at this point that the Watchtower claims they were rewarded for their "faithfulness" and "discretion."

1920:

"Since other scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of the dead being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible legal representatives of the new order on the earth. We must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die."

That was written in 1920, the great campaign the Watchtower talks about today.

1921:

"The time of the end embraces a period from 1799 AD," that was taught for 40 years, " as above indicated to the time of the complete over throw of Satans empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the messiah, The time of the Lords second presence dates from 1874"

Just a couple of more pages and were done.

" We should expect the general harvest of the gospel age to end in 1918."

There would be an ending to the work in 1918.

(*Keep the above prophecy in mind*)

1925:

"The scriptures clearly indicate the climax of the fall of Satans empire and the full establishment of the messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925, that marking the beginning of the fulfillment of the long promised blessings of life to the people millions now living on earth will be living then those who obey the righteous laws of the new arrangement will lie for ever. Therefore we can confidently say at this time that, millions now living will never die."

The Watchtower of March 1,1922 states that these were indisputable facts:

"The time of the end began in 1799, that the Lords second presence began in 1874.

1922:

"We have no doubt about the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914."

1922 Watchtower:

"It is on the basis of such and so many correspondencies in accordance with the soundest laws known to science that we affirm that scripturally, scientifically, and historically present truth chronology is correct beyond a doubt."

I enjoy this one from 1922:

"This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present truth chronology stands in a class by itself. Absolutely and unqualifiedly correct."

1923:

" 1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. The Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge."

1924:

" No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Daniel and those other men of old come forth from the glory of their better resurrection. Perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their post of honor and authority as his earthly Representatives."

1924 as well, Watchtower:

"Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of the truly consecrated child of God, that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874."

1925:

" But all the enemies of the cause of present truth in the earth are fervently hoping that the Bible Students will not be so successful in 1925 in looking for the right thing at the right time, as they were in 1914. If they are however it is the other fellow who will have to do the explaining and not we."

We arrive on the date of 1925 and true to form:

" It is expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason and that when their imaginations burst asunder they were inclined to throw away everything."

And he was speaking about was that people sold their homes and businesses and what not. (A theme we will see repeated)

"The year 1925 is here with great expectations Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished, it may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned with what may transpire this year."

Next page 1930:

"All of the Lords people look forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning and the Lords people were greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular and pointed to with scorn because they had said so much about 1914 and what would come to pass, and their prophecies had not been fulfilled."

1931:

"There was a measure of disappointment on the part of the faithful ones, which disappointment lasted for a time. Later the faithful learned that these dates were definitely fixed in the scriptures and they also learned to quit fixing dates for the future and predicting what would come to pass on a certain date, but to rely upon the word of God as to the events that must come to pass."

(Turning the page) Here we have the title of the Watchtower in 1968:

"Why are you looking forward to 1975."

The next page:

" Are we to assume form this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked for thousand year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly,

It goes into all the points that the chronology could be off a little bit, lets see how much its off by:

"It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years."

Next page we see the sign of the last days with the 1914 generation pointing all the way to Armageddon and underneath a chart of 6000 years of human history ending in 1975. Chapter 2 of that book dealt with the fact that war between heaven and earth precedes the thousand year (reign) meaning that Armageddon would have to take place before 1975.

Some people say that it was "speculation" on the part of the brothers about 1975 but well see here that the society didnt think it was speculation when this Kingdom Ministry of May 1974, said the following:

"Yet the end of this system is so very near, is that no reason to increase our activity?

Well it could be speculation, but lets see what the Society says:

" Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and properties and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked worlds end."

And the next page we see the 1914 generation, we all lived through that prophecy saying that this generation would not pass away. I would like to just read this last page quickly. Watchtower April 1 1972:

"So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative Of course its easy to say that this group acts as a prophet of God, its another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record, what does it show?"

In short, this is the Watchtower record:

Charles Taze Russell:

1881 - all Bible Students will be transferred to heaven-UNFULFILLED

1914 - complete overthrow of earths rulership, Israel converts to Christianity en masse-UNFULFILLED

1915 - again, complete overthrow of earths rulership- UNFULFILLED

Watchtower under Joseph Rutherford:

1918 - day of vengeance will break forth, God will destroy churches and members by millions, and millennium will begin- UNFULFILLED

1920 -The world will explode into complete anarchy, all republics will fall-UNFULFILLED

1925 - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will return to earth, the fall of Satans world will take place- UNFULFILLED

Watchtower under Fredrick Franz:

1975 - the start of the millennium "the fitting time for God to act," "difference of months not years"- UNFULFILLED

1995 - 1914 generation would not pass away, taught as the "creators promise" for 31 years, is replaced by "new light"- UNFULFILLED

Then again in the awake October 8 1968 article:

"True there have been those in times past who predicted an end to the world even announcing a specific date, yet nothing happened, the end did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were Gods truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them."

confuzcious

Stinky,

Thanks,

But the elder I'm in comunicata with says, "The truth is in the pattern of truth spoken through the years."

Basically, I showed him the stuff about being the false prophet and his response (parapharsed) is...

"Well, if you're going to go by that, then there is no way to defend ourselves.

But the truth is the society has told us the truth about the condition of the dead, the truth about Hell, about living in paradise...

My thing is, yes, I mean the society has taught a lot of truth and I do still adhere to many of this.

I am REALLY confused and scared. I about chewed out an elder the other day because of something stupid on his part, but the bottom line is I WANT to serve Jehovah.

Buster

Serve God all you want. But you need to to stop convincing yourself that you can abdicate the resposibility of finding out what the truth is for yourself. If you let others decide for you, you get what you get.

I didn't leave because I found the real truth. I left because I didn't have it.

Warrigal

Hi Confuzious; Jesus said that his followers would be known by the love among themselves. Its not in the Watchtower Society and its not found among the publishers at the Kingdom Hall. Thats my litmus test. Warrigal

onacruse

Hi confuzcious!

The first Scripture that came to my mind was also Deut 18. I think StinkyPantz hit it right on the money, as even that elder admits:

Well, if you're going to go by that, then there is no way to defend ourselves.

Another Scripture that comes to mind:

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

I no longer could feel that what I was doing as a JW was truly "loving my neighbor." All the supposedly correct doctrines of the Society couldn't make up for the lack of Christian love in the congregations, the abuse of power by elders, the dishonesty of the "faithful and discreet slave." I'd rather have to answer for "loving my neighbor" than for "loving the organization."

As far as salvaging whatever beliefs you feel are still valid, well...like you, I've been doing a lot of work on that too. I thought it was going to be like turning my life upside down, but actually, it hasn't been as scary as I imagined. Just take one step at a time; there's no need to rush! The Jesus of the Bible is not sitting up there with a hammer in his hand ready to smash you just because you are re-examining your faith. Actually, he would be patting you on the back!

If I might offer one suggestion: stay here in this forum (or any forum that works for you). It's in the sharing and the asking questions and getting ideas back that the healing happens. Trying to do it "on our own" has been tried, and it just plain works better when you have a community to relate to and that will support you.

Craig

mind

the truth is Jesus was the only perfect man that walked this earth. The truth is what you know in your heart, but do not want to face. The truth is we worship GOD not man. The truth is found at Daniel 11:35" can you be refined?" or are you joining them by a means of smoothness? Daniel 11:34.

Maybe it just that you don't believe in GOD, or maybe you feel he doesn't have the right to let things take place as he see fit. Name 1 religion that's is trying to follow GOD's words to the fullest of their imperfect and flaw being. Then you found the religion that Daniel 11:32-35 apply to then you have found the truth.

So, it all ends in who words do you trust GOD's or man's. Do you love and know GOD"S laws? Do you know PS.119:165. So why are you stumbling?

Did Israel rebel against it's kings? Was not Solomon, who worship false gods still king of Israel? Did not King David, (Solomon father) kill a man for his wife? Why, King Saul tried to kill David, but David said, " he would not touch a servant of GOD. So why are you juding imperfect men? You don't have enough faith and trust that GOD has an appointed time to settle all things.

Speak and be Silent...

SixofNine

For me it was the blood issue. IMO, if you research the blood issue and decide the society is correct on this, you're both a stupid and, more importantly, a bad person, a stone cold child killer and I wouldn't put a drop of water on your tongue if you were in hell.

Meanwhile, you say the society has this truth or that truth, but I bet you've never given honest thought to your reasons for even believing the bible is from a supernatural source. A cart and a horse come to mind.

Edited by - SixofNine on 20 January 2003 22:1:13

NewLight2

Welcome to the board. stick around and read some of the old posts. I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for.

And here are some links to start with that will give you the real truth about the "Truth"(tm)

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/

Shaun's Research on the Jehovah's Witnesses
(Site Contains Photo Documentation )
http://www.jwfiles.com/index.htm

My home page - Has lots of links to valuable information
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/5385/Links1.html

Introspection

Gene, I'm curious to know why you put the word scriptural in qutoation marks. The fact is any kind of scriptural reasoning can just turn into a mind game right, just getting all your mental ducks in a row so to speak. But if you really are interested in what the truth is, I'm sure you'll look and will find it. So I know this doesn't directly address your question of a scriptural reason for leaving, but the fact is reasons are just reasons, a smart person can make things sound a certain way, it doesn't mean it's the truth though. Even if their reasoning is logical, that's just a line of reasoning. I think someone already mentioned the point about practicing what you preach - when you refer to an idea that is only theory. The "truth" is much more than just what they have to say about the bible, there are real people with lives involved. It's actually much bigger than the personal thoughts and feelings we have about it.

Need help - what is the truth...

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