France is a "Pain in the Ass"

by JH 131 Replies latest jw friends

Yerusalyim

BACK.
You're QUITE naive,
IF YOU SAY YOU SAW NOTHING:
The cops leave you alone.
You and your family are safe. Except for the fact that guys who did the drive by are still out there with guns, ready to do MORE drive bys
The murderer(s) are safe for the moment [are they supposed to be safe?] , but who knows how long that will last. Good detectives will solve a murder case sooner or later.HOW if no one is willing to identify them and challenge them?
If you don't provoke them, you won't have to worry about them using weapons against you.[Really? where's the evidence for this? Oh, that's right, it doesn't exist. Muslim terrorists are anti-American because of our interminling amongst the Arab affairs in the Middle East.[No, muslim terrorists are anti american because EVEN if we aren't there, our culture influences theirs BECAUSE so many of them want the lifestyle america can offer, which undercuts what the Muslim radicals want.] They will hate us until we completely withdraw from the world stage, then, they will even more so bring the fight to us] They REFUSE to allow a western culture to dictate to them how to rule their countries and how to succeed. Umm Last I saw, Bin Ladin wasn't the leader of ANY country.
Yes, I've had a chance to speak in person with more than one Iraqi, the benefits of working with the Special Forces. It also seems that there's quite a large Contra group over there, and that the Iraqis have formed a government in exile. Along with some 5000 Iraqis that have volunteered to be trained by the US and used for various missions within Iraq. A friend of mine, General Barno, is training them right now.
back2dafront

Yeru, Perry, my time has run out...i gotta get off of the computer... - all I can say is that if Sadaam is really doing all the things we hear, then let's do something to help the Iraqi people escape. If there was anyone addressing safety of these people, I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing. But all I get is "civilian death is part of war" and everyone excepts that and makes no effort whatsoever to devise a plan to possibly limit the amount of civilian deaths. If they shut up and don't speak against Sadaam, they'll still be alive. Seems like their chances are better without our help if they simply keep their mouth shut. No way to live, granted, but sure beats having 600 missiles dropped on your hometown.
I read your points though - don't think they went in one ear and out of the other. I just ask you do the same with things I say - this is all about enlightening each other, right?
later guys,
back2dafront
Realist

Perry & Yeru,
the BBC wrote...15.000 jews ALONGSIDE 500.000 arabs. since I am not a native speaker maybe you can explain the word alongside to me?
i somewhat doubt that baedeker made his own census. hence i rather trust the numbers published by the BBC which are apparently the only ones based on an actual survey.
The fact remains that Jews far outnumbered Arabs in Jerusalem around this time period
if your statement is true than the vast majority of jews must have lived in jerusalem at this time...hence the rest of the area was of course populated mainly by arabs.
because the arabs tolerated jews and christians to live in jerusalem means they didn'T care about the religious meaning of the mosque? ....i don't quite get your logic.
The simple truth of the matter is that Arabs want to exterminat Jews. They do not want to tolerate any competition to their dictatorial, ignorant, religiously oppresed societies that are close by.
completely unfounded statement...in fact it contradicts history. if the arabs hated the jews so much why didn't they wipe them out when they had the overwhelming majority? fact is they lived rather peacefully next to each other.
the conflict started only after a massive influx of jews to the region started and the arabs felt (understandaly) threatened to become foreigners on their own land.
nobody can blame the jews for wanting their own state...but the location were it was created and the way it was achieved was wrong.
PS: isn't spelled hanukkah? ;-)) hope you had a happy one by the way!
Yerusalyim

Back,
You said,
If there was anyone addressing safety of these people, I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing. But all I get is "civilian death is part of war" and everyone excepts that and makes no effort whatsoever to devise a plan to possibly limit the amount of civilian deaths. Actually, having been involved in military planning, I assure you every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. The US Army has learned that civilian casualties makes for unhappy civilians, which is bad for the peace.
If they shut up and don't speak against Sadaam, they'll still be alive. Seems like their chances are better without our help if they simply keep their mouth shut. No way to live, granted, but sure beats having 600 missiles dropped on your hometown. Are you ready to live in an environment of fear where you have no rights? Maybe Saddam would let you trade places with one of his guys. Hopefully, you won't be the one killed. Remember, it's not only speaking out that gets one killed in Iraq, ANY suspicion by Saddam's hoodlums is a death warrant.
UN-Realist,
You wrote,
the BBC wrote...15.000 jews ALONGSIDE 500.000 arabs. since I am not a native speaker maybe you can explain the word alongside to me?
First, Alongside is a relative term, especially when you're talking about the entire Greater Palestine area. Seems we have some conflicting data. You trust yours, I'll trust mine.
if your statement is true than the vast majority of jews must have lived in jerusalem at this time
Yes, that would be the case. I'm not disputing it.
When Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) toured the Holy Land he lamented at the deserted nature of the area. It is estimated that less than 120,000 souls occupied what is now called Israel and Palestine. The rest of your 500,000 were in what now makes up Jordan, Lebenon, and parts of Syria.
because the arabs tolerated jews and christians to live in jerusalem means they didn'T care about the religious meaning of the mosque? ....i don't quite get your logic
First, most of these Christians WERE Arab. Secondly, the Al Aqsa Mosque was called the 3rd holiest site in Islam only AFTER 1920, this is a legend started by Haj Amin, the Egptian born Mufti of Israel and great uncle to Yassir Arafat. In the early 1900's the "Third Holiest Site In Islam" was all but abandoned, with weeds growing in the court yards and holes in the roof.
the conflict started only after a massive influx of jews to the region started and the arabs felt (understandaly) threatened to become foreigners on their own land.
Ummm, once again, the Arabs were as foreign as the Jews. The land the Jews occuppied they paid for, usually paying exhorbetant prices for swamp land and deserts that they converted to fruitful farms.
completely unfounded statement...in fact it contradicts history. if the arabs hated the jews so much why didn't they wipe them out when they had the overwhelming majority? fact is they lived rather peacefully next to each other.
The statement is supported by the facts and certain little items like the PLO charter. The fact is that the treatment of Jews by the Arabs waxed and waned. The first persecution of Jews my Muslims was initiated by Muhammed himself. Also, one reason the Jews weren't wiped out is the same reason 600,000 Jews weren't wiped out by over 90 million Arabs in the Arab Israeli war. The Jews are tenacious.
nobody can blame the jews for wanting their own state...but the location were it was created and the way it was achieved was wrong.
WHy wrong? The Jews have always had a presence in the holy land. When they started moving there the area was pretty much neglected by the Arabs. Who are you to judge where the Jews have a homeland. This was their historical homeland. They went home.
Realist

yeru,
you trust yours, I'll trust mine.
yours are based on an estimate...the BBC's numbers are based on an actual survey.
The statement is supported by the facts and certain little items like the PLO charter.
well when and why was the PLO founded?
Also, one reason the Jews weren't wiped out is the same reason 600,000 Jews weren't wiped out by over 90 million Arabs in the Arab Israeli war.
superior equipment might have helped a tiny little bit too?!
When they started moving there the area was pretty much neglected by the Arabs.
says who?
Who are you to judge where the Jews have a homeland. This was their historical homeland. They went home.
yes 2000 years ago. you are not seriously suggesting that everyone can claim the land that belonged to his ancestors 2000 years ago are you?
there were areas especially in the US but also in australia where there was indeed noone. they should have founded the state there.
Crazy151drinker

Back,
Here in good ol' Fresno we have the same type of BS happening where the Gangs get all the Witnesses spooked and NO ONE helps out the Police. So what happens? The Gangs are still there shooting people. People need to stand up for themselves. Personally I'd go out and hunt the bastards if they shot one of my loved ones, but hey thats just me.
We have to legalize and tax the sale of drugs folks.....we have to get rid of the profit.
Crazy151drinker

Here's a link to a interesting article about the U.S. buildup of Iraqi arms in the 80's. Oh how times have changed......
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29¬Found=true
ThiChi

We should of let the Germans keep France after WWll.
Yerusalyim

yours are based on an estimate...the BBC's numbers are based on an actual survey.

Surveys are estimates. The figures I used came from the Ottomans in the long run. They were in charge back then.
well when and why was the PLO founded?
The PLO was established in the MID 60's by an Egyptian born Arab named Yassir Arafat who began launching attacks into Israel from the West Bank, then still controlled by Jordan. Tell me, why was this Egyptian attacking Israelis?
superior equipment might have helped a tiny little bit too?!
Superior equipment? Where the HELL did you get that idea? The Arab armies were much more well armed than were the Israelis in the Arab Israeli war. Remember, at this time the Jews were getting no government assistance from the US. A fiesty spitfire named Golda Meir went to the US and took donations from Jews living in the US and Europe and used that money NOT ONLY to buy weapons, but also to fund the fledgling governement they would found in a year. This Israelis had almost no tanks or armoured cars except those they were able to weld together with scrap metal. The entire Israeli Airforce consisted of about 10 airplanes, all propellor driven. Most of their weapons were WWl surplus until they were able to steal a shipment that the Arabs had bought that was WWII surplus. No, the Jordanians alone had more and better arms and were lead by a professional British Soldier called the Pasha. The Egyptians also had the Israelis out gunned. THe Israelis simply fought better because they were fighting for their very survival as a nation, and as Jews.
When they started moving there the area was pretty much neglected by the Arabs.
says who?
Well, we can start with Sam Clemens who lamented that the Holy Land seemed abandoned. Also, we need only look at all the farms the Arabs had in the area (oh, almost none, sorry) the low population, the almost completely abandoned Al Aqsa Mosque, etc etc etc
yes 2000 years ago. you are not seriously suggesting that everyone can claim the land that belonged to his ancestors 2000 years ago are you?
I'm relying mostly on the Jews immigrating in the the area and turning desert and swamp into valuable farm land. It doesn't hurt that the UN said Israel had a right to exist in it's historical homeland in which it has ALWAYS had a presence.
Perry

Realist,
Most of us have become familiar with your rantings of inaccurate information. All this was covered before. Are you trying to learn something here or simply trying to recruit the uneducated?
So that you can refresh your memory, just in case the former is true; I'll reprint the facts again for you here.
Population of Ottoman Palestine
The population of Ottoman "Palestine" is difficult to estimate, because:
1. There was no administrative district of Palestine. Turkish census figures were for various districts, including the Jerusalem, Acco and Nablus districts for example. The Acre district included areas in Lebanon, outside the modern borders of Palestine in which there were no Jews.
2. Turkish census figures did not include Bedouins (estamted at a few thousand) and foreign subjects, of which there were about 10,000 Jews.
3. Both Arabs and Jews avoided the Turkish census. Foreigners who were without residence permits did not want to make their presence known. Arabs and Jews wished to avoid taxes and conscription.
As the data are ambiguous, pro-Zionist and anti-Zionist sources give different estimates. The Turkish census for 1878 listed 462,465 Turkish subjects in the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were at least 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country), and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (Bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects.
By 1908, according to Dr. Hala Fattah (http://www.jerusalemites.org/2_6_1.html) :" when Sultan Abdul-Hamid II's rule collapsed, it was estimated that the Jewish population of Palestine had risen to 80,000, three times its number in 1882, when the first entry restrictions were imposed." Other estimates put Jewish prewar population as low as 40,000 and as high as 100,000.
According to Arjan El Fassed in 1912 there were only 40,000 Jews and 525,000 Arabs in Palestine.
The war reduced both Arab and Jewish populations to some extent.
So, for a variety of reasons, political, criminal, financial, and lack of adequet adminstrative integrity, the polulation of Palestine is difficult to determine from so-called "official" sources. Even so, Baedeker does not contridict the above sources at placing a Jerusalem jewish population at 40,000. In fact, I tend to place more credibility on his figures because of his interest in printing accurate travel guides, (which he is famous for even to this day) as opposed to other sources possibly jaded by geo-political agendas....especially in the relative pre-war calm of 1906.
Now, I ask you.......AGAIN; what census was taken that dealt specifically with JERUSALEM? I'm sure the above scholars would be very happy in finding one. If you cannot find one, then please stop babbling your anti-semitism.
Edited by - Perry on 28 January 2003 8:59:4
Edited by - Perry on 28 January 2003 9:23:23

France is a "Pain in the Ass"

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