Yeah it is rather long and convoluted, though stating it directly usually doesn't get the message through. What would constitute being sufficiently informed though? And you can only be wrong if you think you had the truth in the first place, it involves judgement. Anyways, it doesn't really matter how much I talk about it, for people who treat it as a concept it will be just a concept, those who see that's just the way things are will see it. A person can agree with the statement but just go about everyday life without having that in mind, it becomes just another thing heard stored away in memory.
It's simpler than you think.
by Introspection 21 Replies latest jw friends
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Siddhashunyata
Anyways, it doesn't really matter how much I talk about it, for people who treat it as a concept it will be just a concept
Introspection, thank you. Your point is that many who hear this concept about the limitation of concepts do not get the sense of it nor are they aware of how dramatically it ( the process of conceptualization ,with its limitations) is affecting their relationships and their lives. Most of us are used to just using our bodies and minds without understanding how they work. You are explaining the way we think, how we use our minds, and you are pointing out the limitations of thought. You are also pointing out that when we stop thinking , the mind does not disappear but it begins to function on another level, directly perceiving objects and people as they are and without the encumbrance of conceptions . This is new to many people here because they have not experienced the difference in their own minds. They keep running your idea through the conceptualizing apparatus without sensing that it is the limitation of that apparatus itself that you are pointing out. If I heard this for the first time I would be confused because it is such a different idea, almost destablizing. It forces one to think about whether or not one's own mind is a reliable guide. The silverlining is that the mind is a reliable guide once one understands the limitation of the conceptualization process and the mind perceives naturaly.
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SixofNine
And you can only be wrong if you think you had the truth in the first place, it involves judgement.
I think I disagree with that statement. Perhaps I just need clarification. Why would you say that? Why would a persons perception of being fully informed ("having the truth") have anything at all to do with the "rightness" or "wrongness" of their thoughts, ideas, concepts, actions?
Or do you mean that the individual can only think, or believe, or find, that they are wrong, if they believed themselves to be right in the first place?
What constitutes "sufficient information"? In many cases, we have sufficient information to make intelligent choices in life, I believe. More information is always better. If your messege is to understand the difference between actual information and opinion, whether that opinion be your own or that of Oprah Winfreys favourite expert, well praise be, I support that messege 100%.
Edited by - SixofNine on 25 January 2003 17:37:8
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Introspection
Six, I did mean the latter. I am simply looking at it from the perspective of "actual information" as you say. One can have the honest attitude of "well, given what we know this is the logical conclusion" - as opposed to a black and white right or wrong - it is simply the best we can come up with.
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Blueblades
Hi INTRO. What happens to our thoughts when we sleep and go into the " REM "some of our dreams are filled with vivid thoughts visual things,what's that all about? Blueblades
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Introspection
Hi Blue,That is an interesting question about dreams. To be honest with you I probably couldn't tell you in detail about that, but it has to do with the psychological self/ego. It's interesting to note that some meditators sleep less (and don't dream) and there are some who practice lucid dreaming techniques, (again, you are aware that your thoughts are just thoughts) I know there are times when I am more lucid that I just naturally sleep less. You've probably heard like I have that without REM sleep it is likely that you'll go nuts, so it seems to have something to do with preserving the ego structure. If we were to consider these facts we might speculate that a person who has less of an ego structure needs less REM and less sleep, but that's just my guess. I actually stopped learning about this stuff (and probably forgot a bunch) because at this point I am more interested in what's practical, instead of learning about theory and trying to make it a reality I am kind of letting the real thing happen and tend to find out that there's a theory about it after the fact - thus this lengthy thread about the simple fact that thoughts are just thoughts. I see no reason why you have to have less dreams in order to be aware that thoughts are thoughts though - your ego is just doing its thing, that awareness and the ego can be there simultaneously.
Edited by - Introspection on 26 January 2003 0:31:21
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Inquiry
Hi Intro...
Yes, I was a JW, for about 10 years... I've been out since 97 (wahoo!) I'm glad to be out... free at last... that kind of thing... I've been coming to this site for some time now and I used to post at H20...
I still enjoy coming to the site and checking things out... I don't post often but when something catches my fancy... I reply... I guess you caught my fancy... hahahahah... I relate to your way of writing your thoughts out and I enjoy your candor... I adore good humour and usually reply with it.. although sometimes I just tell it like I see it... I'm never nasty though.. .I don't think it's necessary...
I've been checking out krishnamurti's works lately.. and I find the subject quite interesting... the whole premise is something I haven't explored yet... and you as well as Sidd... seem to be along those lines..
hope that suffices as a story...
Toodles for now
Inq
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Siddhashunyata
Inquiry, I always come back to Krishnamurti. I would reccomend his talks to anyone . Sometimes they seem repetitive or dry and I have to leave them alone but eventually I come back. You chose some excellent quotes on the other thread.
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patio34
Whew! That's the sound of it going over my head--too much thought and reading for me! I'm sure it's meaningful though. So, why did I bother to reply? Mmmmmmm.
Pat
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Introspection
Pat, actually going over your head is a good description of what we're talking about. Everyone who has become aware of their old way of thinking has actually had this experience, you might say if your thought patterns are the traffic in a city then what we're talking about is the helicopter's birds eye view overhead. Most people tend to not stay there for very long and go back, even if it is to establish new thought patterns - but I'm sure you can see how it could be useful to know exactly what's what from that vantage point and then if you want to, make changes accordingly. I think it's worth pointing out though that someone might have a good idea what the traffic pattern is like without ever getting up there, and although someone can change their pattern they may not be aware of it like they would be if they were to see everything from a perspective up above like that.