God Versus Time

by Valis 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • Francois
    Francois

    Um, are we agreed that Jehovah is not God? That when "God" spoke to so-and-so, it was really, say, an angel behind a bush, or something. Too much evidence exists, even in the questions posted here so far, to prove that Jehovah isn't God.

    Then, if you credence Lao Tsu at all, then "The God you can name is not the eternal God."

    So the actual existential, absolute, infinite, eternal, supreme God really has not revealed himself to us at all. Except in the person of The Master who claimed that "he who has seen me has seen the father." Which doesn't necessairly mean that HE was claiming to BE the Father, just that he has all the attribute of the Father which man can comprehend - the higest of which was The Master's incomparable Love.

    Then we have Paul's statement "God is Love" and we're closing in on the only and highest characteristic that humans can experience about the Father. And this characteristic is unsullied by rule-making, conditional love, or by any other thing recognizable in the WTBTS, the Catholic Church or any other since they're mainly interested in maintaining organizational orthodoxy.

    Finally there's The Master's comment "The kingdom of heaven is within you," and the circle is (to me) complete. The spirit of the father, an actual spark of divinity lives within the heartmind of each human being. And finding that spark within and touching it is the end and sum total of all religious experiences. I submit that the perfect practice of an imperfect truth club (religion) can't enhance your spirituality. It's the personal relationship between creature-son and God-Father that constitutes the religion OF Jesus (as opposed to the religion about Jesus), and that personal relationship is within the heartmind of each one of us. And is not open to debate with anyone. Each of our personal religion's our own. We are each the captain, pope, governing body, body of elders of our own personal religion and since it is formed by and through our own relationship with God, who is to question it?

    Should I go back to bed? Or maybe put out a pre-emergent today and leave all this alone? Does the foregoing make any sense to anyone but me?

    OK, I'm done.

    francois

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    Loud and clear francois.

    Guest 77

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Hi Valis,
    The problem seems to stem form the WT's created god, living as a creature within time. Here is another prospective that, I think, might be interesting to ponder.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/101413.htm

    Whether the knowledge of God is of future contingent things?

    Objection 1. It seems that the knowledge of God is not of future contingent things. For from a necessary cause proceeds a necessary effect. But the knowledge of God is the cause of things known, as said above (8). Since therefore that knowledge is necessary, what He knows must also be necessary. Therefore the knowledge of God is not of contingent things. Objection 2. Further, every conditional proposition of which the antecedent is absolutely necessary must have an absolutely necessary consequent. For the antecedent is to the consequent as principles are to the conclusion: and from necessary principles only a necessary conclusion can follow, as is proved in Poster. i. But this is a true conditional proposition, "If God knew that this thing will be, it will be," for the knowledge of God is only of true things. Now the antecedent conditional of this is absolutely necessary, because it is eternal, and because it is signified as past. Therefore the consequent is also absolutely necessary. Therefore whatever God knows, is necessary; and so the knowledge of God is not of contingent things. Objection 3. Further, everything known by God must necessarily be, because even what we ourselves know, must necessarily be; and, of course, the knowledge of God is much more certain than ours. But no future contingent things must necessarily be. Therefore no contingent future thing is known by God. On the contrary, It is written (Ps. 32:15), "He Who hath made the hearts of every one of them; Who understandeth all their works," i.e. of men. Now the works of men are contingent, being subject to free will. Therefore God knows future contingent things. I answer that, Since as was shown above (9), God knows all things; not only things actual but also things possible to Him and creature; and since some of these are future contingent to us, it follows that God knows future contingent things. In evidence of this, we must consider that a contingent thing can be considered in two ways; first, in itself, in so far as it is now in act: and in this sense it is not considered as future, but as present; neither is it considered as contingent (as having reference) to one of two terms, but as determined to one; and on account of this it can be infallibly the object of certain knowledge, for instance to the sense of sight, as when I see that Socrates is sitting down. In another way a contingent thing can be considered as it is in its cause; and in this way it is considered as future, and as a contingent thing not yet determined to one; forasmuch as a contingent cause has relation to opposite things: and in this sense a contingent thing is not subject to any certain knowledge. Hence, whoever knows a contingent effect in its cause only, has merely a conjectural knowledge of it. Now God knows all contingent things not only as they are in their causes, but also as each one of them is actually in itself. And although contingent things become actual successively, nevertheless God knows contingent things not successively, as they are in their own being, as we do but simultaneously. The reason is because His knowledge is measured by eternity, as is also His being; and eternity being simultaneously whole comprises all time, as said above (10, 2). Hence all things that are in time are present to God from eternity, not only because He has the types of things present within Him, as some say; but because His glance is carried from eternity over all things as they are in their presentiality. Hence it is manifest that contingent things are infallibly known by God, inasmuch as they are subject to the divine sight in their presentiality; yet they are future contingent things in relation to their own causes. Reply to Objection 1. Although the supreme cause is necessary, the effect may be contingent by reason of the proximate contingent cause; just as the germination of a plant is contingent by reason of the proximate contingent cause, although the movement of the sun which is the first cause, is necessary. So likewise things known by God are contingent on account of their proximate causes, while the knowledge of God, which is the first cause, is necessary. Reply to Objection 2. Some say that this antecedent, "God knew this contingent to be future," is not necessary, but contingent; because, although it is past, still it imports relation to the future. This however does not remove necessity from it; for whatever has had relation to the future, must have had it, although the future sometimes does not follow. On the other hand some say that this antecedent is contingent, because it is a compound of necessary and contingent; as this saying is contingent, "Socrates is a white man." But this also is to no purpose; for when we say, "God knew this contingent to be future," contingent is used here only as the matter of the word, and not as the chief part of the proposition. Hence its contingency or necessity has no reference to the necessity or contingency of the proposition, or to its being true or false. For it may be just as true that I said a man is an ass, as that I said Socrates runs, or God is: and the same applies to necessary and contingent. Hence it must be said that this antecedent is absolutely necessary. Nor does it follow, as some say, that the consequent is absolutely necessary, because the antecedent is the remote cause of the consequent, which is contingent by reason of the proximate cause. But this is to no purpose. For the conditional would be false were its antecedent the remote necessary cause, and the consequent a contingent effect; as, for example, if I said, "if the sun moves, the grass will grow." Therefore we must reply otherwise; that when the antecedent contains anything belonging to an act of the soul, the consequent must be taken not as it is in itself, but as it is in the soul: for the existence of a thing in itself is different from the existence of a thing in the soul. For example, when I say, "What the soul understands is immaterial," this is to be understood that it is immaterial as it is in the intellect, not as it is in itself. Likewise if I say, "If God knew anything, it will be," the consequent must be understood as it is subject to the divine knowledge, i.e. as it is in its presentiality. And thus it is necessary, as also is the antecedent: "For everything that is, while it is, must be necessarily be," as the Philosopher says in Peri Herm. i. Reply to Objection 3. Things reduced to act in time, as known by us successively in time, but by God (are known) in eternity, which is above time. Whence to us they cannot be certain, forasmuch as we know future contingent things as such; but (they are certain) to God alone, whose understanding is in eternity above time. Just as he who goes along the road, does not see those who come after him; whereas he who sees the whole road from a height, sees at once all travelling by the way. Hence what is known by us must be necessary, even as it is in itself; for what is future contingent in itself, cannot be known by us. Whereas what is known by God must be necessary according to the mode in which they are subject to the divine knowledge, as already stated, but not absolutely as considered in their own causes. Hence also this proposition, "Everything known by God must necessarily be," is usually distinguished; for this may refer to the thing, or to the saying. If it refers to the thing, it is divided and false; for the sense is, "Everything which God knows is necessary." If understood of the saying, it is composite and true; for the sense is, "This proposition, 'that which is known by God is' is necessary." Now some urge an objection and say that this distinction holds good with regard to forms that are separable from the subject; thus if I said, "It is possible for a white thing to be black," it is false as applied to the saying, and true as applied to the thing: for a thing which is white, can become black; whereas this saying, " a white thing is black" can never be true. But in forms that are inseparable from the subject, this distinction does not hold, for instance, if I said, "A black crow can be white"; for in both senses it is false. Now to be known by God is inseparable from the thing; for what is known by God cannot be known. This objection, however, would hold if these words "that which is known" implied any disposition inherent to the subject; but since they import an act of the knower, something can be attributed to the thing known, in itself (even if it always be known), which is not attributed to it in so far as it stands under actual knowledge; thus material existence is attributed to a stone in itself, which is not attributed to it inasmuch as it is known.

  • Francois
    Francois

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

    Thanks guest.

    Think of it like this (I do think that things of truth should be easy to understand).

    Say you are a father. You are watching your child at play. The child starts on a course of action and you, because of your experience, knowledge, and adult insight, know for a certainty how your child's course of action is going to end. You know it from the beginning. And in fact your child's course of action ended exacty as you had known that it would. OK. Got the premise?

    Has the fact that you knew beforehand how your child's course of action would play out in any way detracted from your child's absolute free will?

    Does the fact that you knew beforehand that your child would harm himself, and you did nothing to prevent it, mean that you are unloving? Or does it mean that you gave your child absolute free will and you demonstrate that you are unwilling to intefere with that free will? (We have to remember that we are ultimately dealing with cosmic meanings here, and not some question of space/time right/wrong.)

    If you warn your child of his ultimate fate regarding his course of action, and he predictably hurts himself by continuing on that course, is it your fault?

    If in hurting himself after your warning, your child breaks something of value to you, you can forgive him for it of course, but if you do nothing to change the natural outcome of your child's behavior (let's imagine a spanking, or a bloody cut), does that make you evil?

    That's enough questions I think. There is considerable area for pondering here and for applying the mortal experience to the immortal God as analogy. Have fun.

    francois

    Edited by - francois on 26 January 2003 11:55:35

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Francois

    What you say makes perfect sense to me. I happen to feel the same way.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Interesting question.

    We live in a linear universe. In other words, our existence consists of one day following another and another and so on. Time, for us, always moves in one direction: forward. Einstein showed time travel is possible but only forward, not backward or alternative time. It is entirely possible that quantum mechanics will offer other more expanded understandings, but this is the limit of our understanding of physics and time currently.

    Now then. IF we believe that God created the universe it therefore follows that God created time. Time is measured by the number of hours the earth rotates or the number of days the earth revolves around the sun, etc. So if there were no universe, it is reasonable to deduce there is no time. It therefore follows that the dimension/reality in which God exists is outside space and time as we understand it. It is therefore reasonable to believe that time has no meaning to God. (A thousand years is as one day)

    If this is accurate, consider the repurcussions and possibilities. It is possible that in this dimension/reality time exists as a tableau spread out before God; he would be able to view and experience each minute of each day with not only every human who has ever lived, but every dinosaur, bunny rabbit and basset hound from the birth of the universe until today. And this would apply to any creature living in the same dimension/reality as God, i.e. angels, demons, the Devil. If God exists outside of time, time would have no meaning to him. (God is eternal.) He would not be bound be by living billions of years, one day at a time. He would have no age or life span.

    It is an entirely different way of thinking and viewing the universe I'll admit, but I think if we are to understand God, it sometimes helps to turn a situation around and look at it from God's viewpoint.

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    If I could save time in a bottle..................

  • Tatiana
    Tatiana

    God is taking a long "commercial" break. He'll be right back.....after these important messages.......

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    wait!!!! isn't there some skeeball somwhere around here?????

    Ven

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    If words could make wishes come true.............

    My son just informed me there is no such thing as time, really.

    It was invented by man to keep order in our boxes.

    Edited by - plmkrzy on 29 January 2003 2:6:11

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