by OlderTom 21 Replies latest jw friends
Was it Ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other. Or something like that.
Man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay. What sins have animals committed? Why do they have to die?
Well we know the answer don't we? Everything has to die, nothing lives forever. Why should man be any different?
Questions questions questions, always questions.
Hi Older Tom!
I believe it was in Ecclesiates 9 that that was written about man and animal having the same end. I used to think the same thing--everything dies. It seems 'natural' for humans too.
As for questions: "I'd rather go through life with questions I can't answer than with questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question)."
Patio
The main point of Ecclesiastes was to emphasize the unfruitfulness of a life separated from God.
So if one lives without God, their life is "vanity" according to Solomon.
With a disconnection from God, they are viewed to have as much chance of gaining God's gift of everlasting life as do the animals.
I'm guessing that animals die because they were not made in God's image, so weren't meant to live for eternity. Whereas man, in God's image, yearns for eternity.
Gopher
Hi Gopher
You said
>Gopher The main point of Ecclesiastes was to emphasize the >unfruitfulness of a life separated from God.
>So if one lives without God, their life is "vanity" according to >Solomon.
It's amazing how YOU read such a message. I read Animals die and so do humans.
How did you translate it into such a complex message when in reality the message is so simple?
You go on to say
>With a disconnection from God, they are viewed to have as much >chance of gaining God's gift of everlasting life as do the animals.
I don't read that. Where did you get that? Can you read the bible without decoding it through a Watchtower magazine?
Are you an active witness?
One thing I noticed with witnesses you always get the Watchtower approved answer never a personal oppinion. It's a shame really. Everyone seems to be a clone of each other rather than an individual.
With the ability to think independantly.
Sometimes the message in the bible seems very simple but I found The Society seems to translate it to whatever point they are trying to make at that particular time.
ie more witnessing, stay loyal despite our errors, know what I mean?
Thanks for your input Gopher.
Hey OT,
Did you give any thought to the fact that Gopher might be offering his own opinion??? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. He was just offering his opinions, just as you gave yours. Neither is right nor wrong. It's all about interpretation.
As for the final eventuality of man - we'll find out eventually, one way or another!
Older Tom,
I was just "testing the waters", weighing in with my thoughts. No I have not been an active JW for over 1 year. I am forming my thoughts and values system, and with that I my take some of what I had learned previously, or I may also choose to discard some of what I was taught in the WTS.
Does "freedom" around here mean you have to throw away EVERYTHING you learned before? Or just those elements that didn't make sense?
Tom, the part of your post I was trying to reply to was the last question, "Why should man be any different?" My answer emphasized man's possibility of a relationship with his Creator, which possibility does not exist with animals.
I think my answer meets the criteria of "simplicity" you seek. So I guess I don't understand your objection, if you still have one.
But thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is a good topic.
Gopher
Gopher,
When you figure out HOW man is in gods image
eternity
may be more reasonable
God , the father , has never to my knowlege incarnated...
...his son Jehovah/jesus/emmanuel/I am that I am has
and where is he now.........is he living?
thats eternity......... adam was never promised eternity in the flesh.......
just a thought
S
I was hoping for differing views to come through on this thread. It would be nice to have something to chew on, to learn from!
Stephen, my thoughts:
You pointed to the need to "figure out how man is in God's image". I would say that of all earthly creatures, man has the most advanced combination of capacity for love (though much of that capacity is sadly unused), wisdom and justice. Humankind alone can plan for the distant future. So not physically, but spiritually/mentally, man has the greatest capacity to reflect the Creator's qualities.
You said "Adam was never promised eternity in the flesh". Technically that is true, we never read of an outright promise. The idea of eternity can be deduced from 2 lines of reasoning, (1) God's love. The passage first quoted by Older Tom from Ecclesiastes also later says the "God put eternity into men's hearts." We all know what eternity is, and many reasonable people would agree that eternity is something the majority of mankind would want to have. That being the case, would a loving God "tease" mankind with a concept that they could never attain? (2) Death was only mentioned as a punishment. Only upon eating from the solitary "tree of knowledge" would they die. Death was never explicitly mentioned as an end for the first couple.
Not being dogmatic -- just what I think so far.
Gopher (editted to change a pronoun to make more sense)
Hi Gopher,
According to the writer of Genesis there was a tree of life in the middle of the garden of Eden, this suggest man would have to eat from it before he could live forever, God then invented the sword to keep man from eating from it, which suggest there was something about it's fruit that could give humans everlasting life.
It all sounds like a lot of folklore to me.
Ken P.
Hi Gopher....
just a little response
“I would say that of all earthly creatures, man has the most advanced combination of capacity for love (though much of that capacity is sadly unused), wisdom and justice. “
Man has a component called creativity, which god has, he has the ability to forgive as god does(tho no one has ever been as sucessful) he has spirit, as god does.he ~rules~(has domininon) as god does
David Guzik, a bible commentator had the following observations:
2. (26) God plans to make man in His image
b. An understanding of who man is begins with knowing that we are made in His image; man is different from every other order of created being, because He has a created consistency with God
i. This means that there is an unbridgeable gap between human life and animal life; though we are biologically similar to certain animals, we are distinct in our moral, intellectual, and spiritual capabilities
ii. This means that there is also an unbridgeable gap between human life and angelic life; nowhere are we told that the angels are made in the image of God. Angels cannot have the same kind of relationship of love and fellowship with God that we can
iii. This means that the incarnation was truly possible; that God (in the Second Person of the Trinity) could really become man, because deity and humanity are not the same, but they are compatible
iv. This means that human life has intrinsic value, quite apart from the "quality of life" experienced by any individual, because human life is made in the image of God
c. What specific things in man show him to be made in the image of God?
i. Man alone has a natural countenance that looks upward
ii. Man alone has such a variety of facial expressions
iii. Man alone has a sense of shame that expresses itself in a blush
iv. Man alone speaks
v. Man alone possesses personality, morality, and spirituality
d. What does it mean to be made in the image of God?
i. It means one possesses personality: knowledge, feelings, and a will. This sets man apart from all animals and plants
ii. It means one possesses morality: we are able to make moral judgments and have a conscience
iii. It means one possesses spirituality: man is made for communion with God; it is on the level of spirit that we communicate with God
e. If we are made in the image of God, does God have a human body? No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24). Though God does not have a physical body, He designed man so that man's physical body could do many of the things God does - see, hear, smell, touch, speak, think, plan, and so forth
i. "It will hardly be safe to say that the body of man is patterned after God, because God, being an incorporeal spirit, cannot have what we term a material body. Yet the body of man must at lease be regarded as the fittest receptacle for the man's spirit and so must bear at least an analogy that is so close that God and His angels choose to appear in human form when they appear to men." (Leupold)
f. The terms for image and likeness are slightly different - image having to do more with appearance, and likeness having to do more with an abstract similarity, but they both essentially mean the same thing here.
g. Before God ever created man, He decreed that man would have dominion over the earth; man's pre-eminence of the created order and his ability to affect his environment is no accident - it is part of God's plan for man and the earth
i. In this sense, it is sin if man does not use this dominion responsibly, in these sense of a proper regard for stewardship on this earth
___________
This last part “G” is something I have discussed with a loyal servant of christ who comes here as well. We wonder if SATAN, being the serpent , which use to have legs, survived the fate of the dinosaurs. That he was ruler over the big fellas, in Gods infinite wisdom , giving the smallest one the power of the seeming more powerful..........
ENTER ~man~....... man takes his place to have DOMINION over the earth to RULE earth as God Rules the heavens.....Satan likes this not even for a thought....... and does his little little apple routine, to show his disgust.......
“Humankind alone can plan for the distant future. So not physically, but spiritually/mentally, man has the greatest capacity to reflect the Creator's qualities.”
But man can’t execute this plan without somehelp/ God can........man cant make the world turn, he still needs outside help.
“The idea of eternity can be deduced from 2 lines of reasoning, (1) God's love. The passage first quoted by Older Tom from Ecclesiastes also later says the "God put eternity into men's hearts." We all know what eternity is, and many reasonable people would agree that eternity is something the majority of mankind would want to have. That being the case, would a loving God "tease" mankind with a concept that they could never attain?”
Jesus was a spirit creature, did he have a heart then? we dont know.....
if he didn’t , we know, he did when he came to earth......does he have a heart now? ....thinking about a heart.........God so LOVED the world....where is love contained in a spirit?
Reasonable people may agree that eternity is something they would like on this earth, but they have no other frame of reference. God is by no means logical , reasonable, nor thinks like we do.
His point of reference is not ours.We attempt to make him LIKE us, as we are in HIS image......but we still have much to learn........
S
