Help - how to reason from 'best out there'?

by Xander 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  XandersEvilTwin

  I did get him to crack out his Interlinear for a brief verification that god's name (as the witnesses would have it) never actually occurred in it. That was good for a shocker.

  I was hoping to get into more translation errors - that one in Rev I didn't know, but sure enough, it looks like you are correct (the only WT literature I made a point of keeping is the Interlinear), the Greek is the same!

  I'll be writing that one down!

  Stuff like this one is good - translation and teaching errors in literature still considered 'current' or 'accurate', etc.

  (sorry about using the dup, but this is kinda time-sensitive)
• 

  Brummie

  Yeah, but as long as he keeps buying 'new light', that will never phase him.

  Well there's the key right there! You need to debunk the new light theory before you can ever make any progress.

  Proverbs 4:18 is it? (I must get my Bible out at some point). The path of the rightous grows brighter everyday. Point out to him that the path of the rightous starts off bright not dark. For instance, one day I find out a man named Jesus came to earth. The next day I find out he was born of a virgin. the day after I find out he was the son of God....see how the path started off correct and got brighter? The path of the rightous gets brighter, it doesnt start of with 1799 (dark)1874 (total error) then move to 1878 (even darker) then move to 1914 generation..1918...1919 etc. Infact Proverbs 18:4 also tells us what happens to those on the path of darkness...it gets darker and darker.

  If he can see that clearly you may be able to help him. Until then he will just echo the new light parrot.

  As for organisation full of imperfect men...where does the Bible tell us to follow a bunch of imperfect men? Even his own religion teaches that it does not belong to earthling man to direct his own steps Jerimiah 10:23 perhaps. Plus Hebrews 1:1 refutes the idea that God is still using any imperfect men to speak to his people today. This debunks their idea that the Organisation is used in a similar way to how God using Israel in the past.

  Anyway, just a pennies worth thrown in for free.

  There really is no simple way to break the mind control, but step by step you can do it.

  Brummie
• 

  logansrun

  Xander,

  I don't think I can add too much to what has already been said. This "best out there" argument was one I had to deal with before I left, and one that I'm trying to debate my best friend (a doubting JW) one. I was able to come to terms with it, in part, this way:

  (An illustration): Suppose thirty students take a test and they all fail. Some students fail miserably, scoring below 10% correct. Other students do a little better. But one student scores above them all (but not by too much). Still (still!), he fails. He scores, let's say, 58% correct, not a passing grade.

  That is somewhat how I look at the JWs. I truly feel they might be the "best" (term used loosely) Christian religion out there. But the fact is, they still fail. I'm not a Christian BTW.

  Perhaps that helps.

  Bradley
• 

  hooberus

  I did get him to crack out his Interlinear for a brief verification that god's name (as the witnesses would have it) never actually occurred in it. That was good for a shocker.

  This is a good place to go with him.

  • There are 7 whole NT books in the NWT that do not contain the name Jehovah even once.
  • The kingdom interlinear does not show Jehovah to be in the New Testament.
  • The Watchtower's Bible encyclopedia (Insight) admits that the tettragrammaton has not been found in even one of the thousands NT Greek manuscripts (there are approx: 6,000 extant manuscripts).

  So how could the New Teastament Christians have been "Jehovah" Witnesses?

  Edited by - hooberus on 31 January 2003 12:46:37
• 

  hooberus

  • While the Old Testament Hebrew manuscripts contain the divine name YHWH approx. 7,000 times, the New testament Greek manuscripts do not contain it at all!
  • Out of over 6,000 extant New Testament Greek manuscripts There has not been found a single New Tesament Greek manuscript containing the divine name in its full form YHWH. The Watchtower admitts this in their Bible encyclopedias.
  • Even the Watchtowers Greek interlinear does not have the divine name in its full form anywhere in the New Testament.
  • The Watchtower Proclaimers book (early chapter) and Bible encyclopedias (under the supheading "name") state that Jesus's disciples alredy knew Gods name from the Old Testament and that Jesus making his fathers name known meant that he made known the "person" such as making manifest his nature and attributes.
  • Since the Watchtower Society claims that the Bible manuscripts have been passed down to us accurately and the Bible is well preserved they should not at the same time claim that the name YHWH was ever a part of the original manuscripts.
  • Therefore the New Testament Christians could not have been "Jehovahs Witnesses"
• 

  peacefulpete

  I'll just repeat that the understsanding that the JWs are the best out there is based upon a rigged criteria. Every Church feels it is the best out there or noone would be members would they? If the criteria is removed from an interpretation of conflicting Bible verses and based entirely upon what is emotionally and socially healthy, the JWs fare very poorly. It is my position that the negative perception of the world and the people in it is a divisive influence that undermines the efforts at world peace and humanitarian causes. There are modern christian denominations that because of a world vision and education in social science teach a very different form of christianity. To do this they likewise interpret the conflicting Bible verses, but do this through the lens of public good. Christianity borrowed most all of it's ethics from preexisting religions but it also retained the worst aspects of sectarianism. Division and intolerance and arrogant complacency. JWs have revived both whereas other churches sought to reinvent Christianity in light of human needs. Best out there? not in my eyes. It has been said that the biggest mistake a man can make is to do nothing whe he could do only a little. JWs not only do nothing but punish members with disfellowshipping who try to improve the world. Justifying this as disloyally wasting time polishing the brass on a sinking ship when our job is to convert more to think pessimistically like them.
• 

  blondie

  Jerry Garcia said it best:

  Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

  Blondie
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello Xander,

  Two questions which JW's almost universally feel uncomfortable with and which seem to crack the dissonance are:

  Do you feel that Jehovahs Witnesses are the only true Christians on the planet?

  Do you really believe that God is going to execute everybody on this planet apart from Jehovahs Witnesses?

  I am yet to meet a JW with half a brain who does not try to qualify the questions above, indeed even the WTS itself seeks to do this in its FAQ on its PR website as it plainly knows the public relations consequences of sticking to its own theology. Once a qualification begins, the JW is straying from official WTS doctrine they know it!

  Best regards - HS
• 

  Xander

  Out of over 6,000 extant New Testament Greek manuscripts There has not been found a single New Tesament Greek manuscript containing the divine name in its full form YHWH. The Watchtower admitts this in their Bible encyclopedias.

  However, appendix 1A of the Interlinear Translation claims to show a number of partial Greek manuscripts that contain the form YHWH (in original Hebrew, no less). I'm EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL of the validity of those 'partials', and am curious if anyone has any other thoughts on them?

  I truly feel they might be the "best" (term used loosely) Christian religion out there. But the fact is, they still fail. I'm not a Christian BTW.

  I'm not, either, hence the difficulty of arguing my position. He's much like I was at that age - completely unwilling to accept anything other than divine creation for humanity, so I must argue from a position of christianity as a valid religion, but the JWs as not.

  That's a VERY difficult position for me to argue from, as my study of scripture has slacked off a lot, for obvious reasons.
• 

  NeonMadman

  "If nothing else, at least this org tries to follow the bible the closest, every other religion has serious flaws."

  Unfortunately, the part in bold above is absolutely false. The bottom line for a JW is not at all what the Bible says, but what the organization says that it says.

  Perhaps you could use some of the examples of "blinking light" (e.g., the men of Sodom being resurrected, or the identity of the "superior authorities") to get him to see that JW's do not follow the Bible, but the organization?

  Or, perhaps you could ask him to show you the scriptural basis of some of their organizational practices (like judicial committees, reporting time, pioneering, 5 meetings a week, etc.?) and ask him whether he is following the dictates of the Bible, or the dictates of men in doing these things.

  It's going to be difficult to convince him if he wants to keep believing it, even if it's false, because he is comfortable there. Unfortunately, that is the case with a lot of JW's.