by Yerusalyim 39 Replies latest jw friends
Shutterbug - Feb 16th I wanted to get something special for my first birthday celebration in twelve years, but that might be too much fireworks for even me....
Bush ain't going to back down - he's a true Texas cowboy. War sucks but the only thing that might stop this one is another, and I think everyone needs to keep their eyes on the "East".
I thought the 'evidence' was not as clear as I would have liked. The 'evidence' was not convincing. If you have a pre-conceived view...the evidence would be immaterial anyway. I think there is enough ambiguity to say that inspectors should be given more time to come up with something concrete.
That said, the US will hit Iraq. Its a shame that 100,000+ people may die.
ISP
Well ISP ... I sure as hell don't know what type of evidence you are looking for. You sound like Madiline "HalfBright" today. But (when she was Sec. Of State) she said the exact same sh!t as Powel did today (except she didn't provide the evidence) and she supported attacking Iraq. This at a time when the "bent one" was President and "hildabeast" was the First Lady.
The facts are there was a cease fire and Iraq had to comply with the terms. It didn't and there is loads of evidence that shows it to be in technical breach of the cease fire - an easy one is not to shoot at Allied planes for crying out loud never mind the inspectors should be given all the weapons and not have to go on a wild goose chase! Clear evidence you choose to ignore!
The entire UN security counsel agreed to sometime ago as conditions for a ceasefire. But now France and a few other countries have so much invested in that stupid country they are wobbling.
In my mind ... I don't think no amount of evidence will convince you ISP ... no amount.
You are probably like me .... thinking their must be a better way than war for this since the USA, Britain and other countries lie Canada haven't even figured out the exit strategy yet.
hawk
p.s. - Of course Canada hasn't said they are committed to the USA cause yet so the government can look good to the Canadian people. But when push comes to shove, our troops - a lot who are over there already in an air base and at sea - will be with the Americans and British.
according to all experts i have seen on TV powell did not present any new evidence. he reiterated the info gathered over the last 12 years. new was only the link to al quaida...which is questionable at the moment however. only 2 days ago the british MI6 reported that hussein has no cooperation with al qaida....and powell has only one witness reporting this.
also the weapons inspectors controlled some of the sites where hussein had supposedly produced chemical weapons...and they couldn't find any remains (which is almost impossible if the material was indeed there). so this makes the "evidence" a little questionable.
in any case it would be good to let the other nations check the presented new evidence. also to give the inspectors more time couldn't hurt. there is no need to rush this war.
in reality the US will attack as soon as all troops are in position...no matter what.
Its a shame that 100,000+ people may die
That is a shame and it's entirely up to Sadam to stop it. He is the one escalating the issue by not cooperating. He has not been cooperating for 12 years. All he has to do is come clean about what everyone knows he has and had. All he has to do is provide evidence that he destoryed what he had. He has not. The lives of his citizens are in his hands.
If Sadam uses even one of his stockpiled chemical weapons against the US, then the he will be proven a liar (yet again) and the war would have been proven innevitable. If he really doesn't have anything, then he's about the most stupid dictator to grace the earth because he could have easily avoided the situation by cooperating fully under the terms of his obligation. He will ultimately be responsible for the death of any of his citizens.
rem
If Sadam uses even one of his stockpiled chemical weapons against the US, then the he will be proven a liar (yet again)
If Saddam uses even one of his stockpiled chemical weapons against the US (or, say, a group he sells said weapons to uses them against us) - THEN AND ONLY THEN are we justified in going to war.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but if we attack BEFORE we or one of our allies are attacked in this case....this will be the FIRST TIME IN US HISTORY that we were the aggressor. The *first time* that we initiated a war instead of retaliating for attacks against us or our treaty allies.
*That's* not something I want to see in my life. The world was changed for the worse when the US went from an isolationist period to a world player....I'm afraid of what will happen when we move from a 'world player' to 'agressor'.
Of course, that's what some of you have been clamoring for all the time. And, I guess that's what the American people want now.
I thought we were better than that.
Perhaps *I* was mistaken.
Edited by - Xander on 5 February 2003 14:5:59
My prediction, 22 February, but I could be wrong.
ISP,
I think there is enough ambiguity to say that inspectors should be given more time to come up with something concrete.
The point is that the job of the inspectors is NOT to find evidence of anything. The job of the inspectors is to verify what Saddam has done with his WMD, and that he has stopped developing WMD. It was Saddam's job to account for his WMD, so far, he hasn't, he is in material breach just by not disclosing. The evidence shown that they were specifically trying to hide things is more than enough evidence.
Realist,
according to all experts i have seen on TV powell did not present any new evidence
So, the revelation of the intercepted phone calls wasn't new? You'd seen that already?
in any case it would be good to let the other nations check the presented new evidence. also to give the inspectors more time couldn't hurt. there is no need to rush this war.
A lot of the evidence DID come from other nations. What specifically are the inspectors to do? Again, their job isn't to "find" anything. Saddam was supposed to disclose EVERYTHING, yet he disclosed NOTHING.
The 12 year "rush" to war rests on the difficulty of fighting a war in Iraq in the summer months. We could do it, but it would be difficult. We for SURE don't won't to give him another full year to hide and build.
The inspectors controlled sites? Really? Which ones? they visited sites, but didn't control them. You think the clean up teams can't clean up a site well enough to cover up the fact that there were weapons produced there?also the weapons inspectors controlled some of the sites where hussein had supposedly produced chemical weapons...and they couldn't find any remains (which is almost impossible if the material was indeed there). so this makes the "evidence" a little questionable.
Xander,
Iraq has already broken its treaties. The world has to have the balls to confront aggressors such as Saddam. The UN is so weak that Iraq's and North Korea's don't seem to worry about getting caught or neglecting their obligations. This cannot be allowed to continue, and if the US is the only nation willing to step up, then so be it. I think 12 years of noncooperation is quite enough. Remember they could only ignore Hitler for so long. Sometimes you just have to nip things in the bud.
rem
You missed the point of my post. Re-read it again. Slower, this time.
Xander,
Then look at this as a situation in which we are continuing hostilities initiated by Saddam against Kuwait 12 years ago. Further, in this day and age to "wait" until we're attacked first could end up costing more lives than I'm willing to see die.
