Are there only two ways out of the WT World?

by Maverick 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  RAYZORBLADE

  This is very interesting. I had never heard of 'baptism nullification'.

  I originally contacted the elders by letter. I did that approach. Didn't matter in the long run, as far as I know, I am either DF/DA'd. Essentially, the same thing.

  Interesting about 'LEAVING'. Notice the only way to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses as a rule is on their terms?

  Thanks Maverick. Despite my many years away, these issues etc., still resonate with me. I appreciate this forum, all things are discussed, and some wonderful solutions offered.
• 

  Maverick

  Well dadalus, I got more reaction out of you that the whole of the J-dud Society. At Last, I pissed someone off. As for your relative who DA'ed, if it worked for her fine. I never had to meet with anyone. They never called or announced anything from the platform. Even if they wanted to meet with me the letter tells them not to. And the "no response" portion places an assumption of compliance. So, no time on my part was taken in this action outside the mass mailout. And, yes this letter would work if you felt that you were going to be disfellowshipped and wanted to head them off at the pass. What legal fees? Outlay so far $0.00. As for your mother-in-law or those who chose a different path being weak( your words not mine), or talkers, again a non issue as the letter was not an option for them since it wasn't even available to them yet. As for being judgmental are we talking about you or me--I forget??
• 

  minimus

  Once you're in the WT World, you are in the mafia. Death is the only way to get out.
• 

  xjw_b12

  Maverick.

  Another opinion here. My wife and I tried the fade, due to relatives still in the org. We were left alone for a few years, until 1 day out of the blue, I received a phone call from an elder, telling me there was a JC meeting in 3 days, to discuss our situation. I knew immediately what they were up to, and I had to scramble to put together a strongly worded letter, which I copied to my members of parliament, and I had it notorized.

  This is the letter:

  December 10, 1998

  Mr. ELDER

  Dear XXXXX:

  Please find enclosed a copy of a letter sent today to my Federal Member of Parliament.

  Your decision [or was it your decision?] to request such an impromptu meeting after an absence away from the congregation of nearly 4 years is very puzzling. Especially so, since the Watchtowers own policy book lays down the criteria for you as an elder to follow in these situations. Criteria you either havent reviewed or are choosing to ignore!

  We are posing no threat to the congregations cleanness and welfare, nor are we causing a public scandal.

  There is no evidence or witnesses to claim that we profess to be Jehovah"s Witnesses

  We are not recognized within the community as Jehovah"s Witnesses.

  We have no contact with or association with the congregation. [except for our attendance at my uncle XXXXX'S memorial service, which you mentioned in your phone call, and if thats your evidence of contact with the congregation that claim is preposterous! Ecclesiastes 7 : 1 ]

  Based upon the preceding information, and its lack of application to us, and the fact that we do not recognize you as having any authority over us, nor do we feel any accountability to the congregation, we will not meet with you and we consider the matter closed.

  This is NOT a letter of disassociation and it must not be misconstrued as such

  !

  Sincerely :

  To the best of my knowledge, no letter was ever read , nor an announcement made at any of the congregations, but we noticied changes when we met former friends in public, and our relatives cut off all association with us. ( No loss there ).

  So my point is, even if they do not officially disfellowship you or announce that you have disassociated yourself, they get the word out.

  xjw_b12

  " Millions Now Living Will Never Know "

  Edited by - xjw_b12 on 15 February 2003 7:39:58
• 

  dedalus

  As for your relative who DA'ed, if it worked for her fine.

  I'll be sure to let her know you think it was okay for her to DA herself.

  Even if they wanted to meet with me the letter tells them not to. And the "no response" portion places an assumption of compliance.

  Letters of disassociation can, and often do, just as easily request termination of further communication. So, in this way, there's no difference between baptism nullification and disassociation. Both place an assumption of compliance.

  And, yes this letter would work if you felt that you were going to be disfellowshipped and wanted to head them off at the pass.

  It wouldn't stop them from labelling your or shunning you, which is just what happens when you DA yourself.

  What legal fees? Outlay so far $0.00.

  Should you ever decide to back up the bluster of your letter with action, it could cost you money. The foundation of your process is still predicated upon litigation.

  As for your mother-in-law or those who chose a different path being weak( your words not mine), or talkers, again a non issue as the letter was not an option for them since it wasn't even available to them yet.

  I didn't say these were your words; I said, rather, that these were your insinuations. When you said that the path of least resistence is the most popular, or however you worded it, you insinuated that people, being weak or lazy or stupid or whatever, prefer the "easy" way to your supposedly much better way.

  As for being judgmental are we talking about you or me--I forget??

  Clever. Just so you know, I think baptism nullification is a fine way for anyone who wants to try it, who would find it more personally satisfying or whatever. It's even a nifty sort of idea. But you can promote it without shitting on those who DA'd.

  Dedalus
• 

  blackguard

  Hey dedalus, What's your problem? This guy gave jws and others another option! D/A-D/F-Fadeaway, or Baptism Nullification----do what works best for you. The nullification method seems to be a distinction with a difference, contrary to your claim. Many jws are fearful of leaving the orwellian watchtower world because of the shunning and ostracism mechanisms that disfellowshipment and disassociation and to lesser extent fadeawy causes. Baptism nullification, as I understand it, has several benefits;(i) gives an individual the option to leave in a spiritual condition prior to baptism, i.e. a worldly person that jws can communicate with (ii) in the event that libel or slander erupts in the local gulag lawsuit might be considered. Show us how a jw can D/A or be D/F'd and still communicate with friends and family in the gulags and I'll listen to ya!
• 

  Maverick

  Dear dadalus: I am impressed with your response. I will say that I was considering disassociating myself for some time, but after a lot of careful thought and with the help of some very loving and loyal friends I choose the nullification. I think you have misinterpreted my feelings on disassociation. I am not against it, get out any way you can! Sending a poorly written, angry or factually erroneous letter does not help the reader of the letter see the writers side. A letter is best that serves both the sender and the receiver. Don't you agree? I come by my user name quite honestly, I am paid very well for coming up with innovative problem solving techniques. And your are quite right when you say that in any case the person will be shunned. I think the nullification makes it easier for the slaves to overide this. And that benefits everyone. Each one of us has to decide what serves him best. I want to leave the door open for the slaves. Many a person I had issues with has proven to be a valuable ally. I hope this to be the case with the people I still love who are now enslaved to this apostasy. Yours, Maverick
• 

  dedalus
• 

  dedalus

  The nullification method seems to be a distinction with a difference, contrary to your claim.

  Okay, let's see about that.

  Many jws are fearful of leaving the orwellian watchtower world because of the shunning and ostracism mechanisms that disfellowshipment and disassociation and to lesser extent fadeawy causes.

  Okay.

  Baptism nullification, as I understand it, has several benefits;(i) gives an individual the option to leave in a spiritual condition prior to baptism, i.e. a worldly person that jws can communicate with

  Maverick himself has admitted that people who nullify their baptisms will be shunned. How is this different from being DA'd? It's not. Sure, the Organization doesn't have the paperwork to deal with BN, but that's what "marking" is for. To think that someone who self-nullifies is going to be viewed as "open" for JW communication is to ignore the very essence of what Witnesses are taught to do.

  (ii) in the event that libel or slander erupts in the local gulag lawsuit might be considered.

  Disassociating yourself is not an act that requires you to give up your legal rights if someone is slandering you. So, again: what's the difference?

  My only statement on this before was that a lot of people who leave don't want to have anything to do with the Witnesses again. Maverick, it seemed to me, was strongly insinuating that disassociating oneself was inferior to his method, but my observation has been that some people have absolutely no interest in deliberately establishing a connection with the Organization predicated on the threat of litigation.

  Show us how a jw can D/A or be D/F'd and still communicate with friends and family in the gulags and I'll listen to ya!

  In my opinion, you're being way too optimistic about how baptism nullification will preserve ties to active Witnesses. It won't, and Maverick himself has admitted this. I don't think I have a "problem." This is a discussion board and I'm presenting a different point of view -- and in return I've got Maverick calling me a pity-hog and suggesting I need psychological intervention. I don't quite understand that -- it seems sort of smug, to me, but whatever.

  I've said this before, but will say it again -- BN sounds like a great idea for anyone who wants to try it. It all has to do with what feels best for the individual in his or her personal situation. That's why I thought it was sort of rude for Maverick to say, in a different thread, that it was "too bad" a person had DA'd himself. Why "too bad"? I resent the assumption that his method is intrinsically superior.

  Dedalus
• 

  Farkel

  Suicide is the only fourth option, after DF, DA, or fade away.

  Unfortunately, many dubs have taken this option just to get away from Watchtower bondage.

  That alone speaks VOLUMES about what this religion is really like.

  I guess we could consider dying a natural death as a fifth option. Even so, that brings freedom and peace to many who've had the Watchtower wreck their lives, and it is the last and final and inevitable way to get OUT of that horseshit and control the Watchtower forces on people.

  Farkel