Lurker trying to gain clarity

by questioningmyfaith 75 Replies latest jw friends

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  defender of truth

  I didn't want this thread to turn this way. I truly could care less about the "cult" behaviors of the wt.
  

  You have asked for people's views on a public forum, it doesn't really matter how you wanted it to go.
  
  This isn't a Watchtower study where people answer set questions in the way that you want them to.
  Many people here care about the effect of mind control and destructive propaganda.
  

  I believe the advice on what type of person you are supposed to be and how to treat others has made me a better person and more likable.
  

  If you say so. You come across as arrogant, antisocial and borderline sociopathic. The black+white teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses can have that effect. We just don't always see it at the time. Case in point:
  

  I have come to terms that I'll lose my witness friends and families. But again, I just don't care. I know why they are going to make the decisions that they make.
  

  Unless you have disposable friends and family, I am not convinced that you know what you are saying. Not until it actually happens.
  

  The love and understanding that the elders are showing now, will be utterly irrelevant when they cast you out as a social pariah, just for changing your personal belief to atheist/agnostic.
  

  As you said earlier, the Nazi's were responsible for their actions, for the way they treated people.. Not the innocent JW's. They were not responsible for the Nazi's callous treatment, based on nothing but their personal beliefs.. although had those soldiers not been brainwashed by Hitler's propaganda and served under the regime of a controlling despot, many of those German men would likely never have caused such harm to others and lived normal lives.
  

  The same is true for those elders, who will make the decision to take people's family and friends away from them. They are responsible for that.
  

  But they would likely never have told anyone to completely shun and avoid a family member or friend, just because the person had a different belief, without that controlling structure and Watchtower propaganda to convince them of the 'rightness' of this mental cruelty. Most elders are likely decent family men, who would never do such a thing, if this organisation had not trained them to do so.
  

  You are on the verge of freedom, you have already got further down that path than many who are too afraid to research because of the implied threat of destruction at Armageddon, or the indoctrinated fear of a God that will kill them and their children if they do not obey him.. Yet you still wonder if there could be a Paradise for JW's, that maybe they could still be right somehow..
  Once someone is indoctrinated by a system or organisation, they are caught in a trap. Many never escape.. Some try to help others escape the trap.
  If you could care less about people being controlled, then fine.. But I find that attitude Unchristian, to say the least.
  
  If you have even the slightest interest in the suffering of others, read some of these real life stories:
  
  www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/my-darling-son.php.
  
  www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/sundawn.php
  
  www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/merry.php
  
  www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/coffeeblack.php
  
  
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  steve2

  questioningmyfaith, welcome.

  If you have lurked here for a while, you will already know that there is a very, very wide range of "attitudes" towards JW organization. It is possible that you may have sampled mainly the more overtly critical threads and missed those that are less critical and even trying to understand specific situations.

  Good on you for still asking questions and I admire your ability to make it very clear what your limits are (you do not want to hear ill spoken of the Witnesses).

  You've raised some really good questions. You even raised them with the elders in your congregation. I like that they were kind in their responses! None of us here expect you to do anything at all. You know we are here should you feel the need to resume contact. Best! Steve
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  apostrate

  questioningmyfaith,

  It sounds to me like you are about 95 per cent JW and about 5 per cent doubter.

  When you talked to your elders, did they encourage you to get out in the field service more often and remain firmly within "Jehovahs modern day ark"?

  If I were you I would listen to them and do just that. Get right back in there and give it 150 per cent!

  I know that's what I did! I was once right where you are at right now. So I listened to the advice of the elders and jumped right back in determined to be the best damn JW there ever was!

  And, you know where it got me? The deeper that I dug my head into the Organization, the harder that I tried to be a super-duper JW, the more things began to become crystal clear.

  I realized that I was trying to live a lie! And the more I realized that if this really wasn't working for me, how could I go out door-to-door and endorse this "religion" with a clear conscience?

  Yep, go out in service more, place more magazines and books. That was always the stock answer I got when seeking advice from the elders (no matter what the question was).

  So I would advise you to go out in service more and place more magazines and books. Then come back here after a while and let us know how it's working for you!

  Seek truth and you will find it!
• 

  Dumplin

  questioningmyfaith, welcome.

  Would you read a post from Jesus himself if he criticized your religion? ...because he has already posted his feelings for all of us to read, you know.

  You said:

  I believe the advice on what type of person you are supposed to be and how to treat others has made me a better person and more likable. I don't have a single negative feeling towards a single witness or the organization as a whole.

  If "the advice on what type of person you are supposed to be" is so great, then tell me how is it that JWs benefit others outside their immediate families and friends? How do they fulfill the good Samaritan standard that JC set for them?

  Google search 'church offers support to refugees' . I did. Almost every religion on earth were mentioned. Did I see JWs mentioned? Why not?

  We are witnessing the worst humanitarian disaster of our time. Most religions are reaching out to help. Not JWs.

  You still don't have a single negative feeing towards them?

  Please tell us how JWs have taught you to treat others and made you a better person?

  Do you go along with their belief that most everyone on earth will be destroyed? When I was a JW I didn't know of any that objected to this idea. But if that's what makes you a better person and more likable, i'd have to ask you: Who are you more likable to?

  Personally, i think the only honest JW is an exJW.
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  millie210

  questioningmyfaith
  If it helps to see my perspective, I have had a family member that has been an ardent apostate (which they embrace) for years now. When I was lurking on another website, I found their posts and saw that their story was a lot different than the truth. The truth is never black and white though. However, our memories always shade in the gray areas to make us believe it can be. Along with that, our goal posts that we use to gauge what is truthful or not always move with personal prejudices. Sometimes they shrink and sometimes they enlarge because we want to believe that what we're hearing has to be the truth.

  This does help me to see your perspective. Thank you for writing it.

  I remember when I first came here. I would read and go away thinking what a bunch of emotional people. Seeing slang terms for things and people I had been taught to respect was especially off putting. It made me think less of the posters instead of its intended effect.

  I persevered and slowly the true gems started to emerge. Like Steve2 said, there are many viewpoints to be found here and more importantly a huge amount of truthful data.

  You seem sincere and I have no doubt you will find your way.
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  Sabin

  QMF, hello it`s very nice to meet you. Why are you on this forum asking us these questions? If what you claim you feel about the org is true & you are so sure of it why are you shouting so loud to defend it? Believe in God & the org goes hand in hand according to them, you cannot have one without the other. The org teaches that God is almighty & yet you can question him, doubt him, but don't question the W.T. this doesnt add up to me. It feels as if there is something here your not admitting to yourself. You may well have spoken to other elders about your doubts & they may have been kind & loving, however you have not confessed the whole truth have you? you have held back, you have not told them you on this forum & you have no intension of doing so. Your not trying to prove us all wrong, your trying to prove that W.T. is right. The argument is within you. The very thing quite often that we don't want to discuss, in your case the W.T is the very thing that is bothering us the most, we push it away because we fear what it will reveal bout us or what will happen to us. You are very defensive toward us when there is no reason to be so, & that I find troubling, for you of cause. I stand to be corrected on everything I say & I certainly hope this hasn't cased you offense. I look forward to reading your next post. SABIN.
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  freemindfade

  Questoning

  Think about this. You are on this site, and you have to hide who you really are because the religion you belong to is so opposed to any dissent, they have effectively censored you so you don't lose all your loved ones. It's not OK.
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  Finkelstein

  questioningmyfaith says ......
  

  There isn't a single thing that could convince me that GB is personally responsible for any single death.

  In 1945 the President of the WTS and his leading bible scholar F. Franz proclaimed that transferring blood from one person to another would entail the transferring of the givers sins and ill character to the person who received the blood. They interpenetrated a dietary Hebraic law concerning the practical use of blood from killed animals as one correlating to modern day medical Blood Transfusion procedures.
  

  Nathan Knorr and F. Franz of the WTS. created a no blood doctrine derived from dubious unscriptural means, which since 1945 has killed thousands of people including innocent children.
  

  These two also created a pretentiously false deceiving doctrine of 1975 which drove some people to commit suicide out of anxiety, stress and depression.
  

  So all it depends in how " Truthfully " and honestly you want to proclaim that the GB members have never killed anyone, in reality they have and quite a lot over the years.
  
  
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  Dumplin

  questioningmyfaith says ......
  

  There isn't a single thing that could convince me that GB is personally responsible for any single death.

  A short history lesson:

  The suffering of JWs was both tragic and unnecessary. Many individual JWs displayed tremendous courage and conviction. This suffering was a result of the words and actions of Rutherford, then president of the WT society. It was Rutherford who supported Hitler before the war, but later got JWs sent to the camps when he challenged Hitler to harm one Jehovah's Witness and see what would happen to him. Rutherford was anti-Semitic, calling Jews "profiteering, conscienceless, and selfish". - Golden Age 1927 Feb 23 p.343 During the 1930's under Rutherford, Witnesses became known as a religion of hate - due to their continual insults against other Churches and governments. In 1933, the Nazi government banned the Watchtower's German operations. To overturn the ban, Rutherford sent letters and Declarations to Hitler telling him that JWs were "pro German" and that the JW brothers "of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals ... as the German Reich" In 1933 a Declaration of Facts was released at the convention stating the Watchtower's support of Germany's stance against Jews. But Rutherford's efforts to appease Hitler was to no avail. Too little, too late. The ban was not lifted. In 1934, Rutherford started to antagonize Hitler through his publications, challenging him to "refrain from persecuting JWs" ... or else "God will destroy YOU!" - Yearbook 1975 p.174 I was shocked when I first read this back in the 70's ...that it was Rutherford who threw the JWs under the bus, causing the persecution that the dear brothers had to endure. It was Rutherford who caused so many JW deaths

  .http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php
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  Island Man

  I don't think belief in god should be predicated on man's ability to govern himself or the dire state of the world. In other words, the problems in the world and or the world's seeming path to self destruction is not a good reason to believe in a god.

  There is a logical fallacy called argument from consequences where a person refuses to accept a logical argument simply because they cannot stomach negative implications of the argument if it is true.

  Truth does not owe you comfort and hope. Truth can be a bitch. More than 90% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct, and the majority of them went extinct before humans came into being! It is therefore not reasonable to think that the universe somehow owes the human species a successful future. Sure we all want humans to continue forever. But its not wise to let that desire cloud our thinking. Arguing from emotion is not valid thinking.