Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt 73 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi Steve,

  Franz did not only skirt around Greenlees, he skirted around Frederick as well. Why? There was much more going on between the two than he let on and he didn't want to expose too much of their internal politics.

  As I wrote to John Aquila, I don't want to push the Greenlees issue too hard because it has repercussions. I do want to give my thoughts on why I think he omitted Greenlees in this response post and then I'll let it go. I'll refer to this post, but don't want to comment on the Greenlees thing any further. In retrospect I should have left it out in the original post because it can just get ugly. Perhaps that's what Raymond thought :)

  You are right that if Franz outed Greenlees it would have lowered the integrity of the GB from politically minded men to the everyday sick and fucked up shit humanity has to deal with on a daily basis. It would have shown the GB for the clowns (copyright LostGeneration) that they are. I further contend that Franz would have been happy to remain a part of the Clownshow if his theological changes were implemented.

  But then again the argument is valid that the Greenlees accusations were possibly just accusations. But isn't that what everybody is on about today anyway? The way things are handled in sexual molestation cases. Why was this swept under the rug? Why did Franz not draw attention to the procedure unless he was fine with it?
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  zophar

  If there was a takeover conspiracy and if it had succeeded, I'm wondering what reforms we would have seen and if those reforms may have caused a mass exodus? i.e. partaking of emblems, d/f policy changes, etc

  Excellent observation. There had already been an easing of how DF were treated and what constituted a "greeting" Saying hello was not what the Scriptures had intended. Also, what constituted "sacred service" was much more reasonable at that time.

  Then in 1981 the Pharisaical rules came back. As usual, The Society way over compensated. Strict unChristlike behavior toward DF or DA.

  They were definitely taking steps toward a kinder gentler organization before Ray and Ed Dunlap left.
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  oppostate

  So I guess I want to peg him down a notch or two. Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.

  Out of the [pure] abundance of his heart St.B. speaks.
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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi Wasanelder Once,

  The stipend was hush money
  

  Damn straight. But also for a lifetime of service. If he accepted it the GB knew he would keep quiet. He would not have been DF'd and the shunning rules would never have been re-introduced. When he declined they knew what he was going to do next. The fact is he was not a 'Hannibal' who would quietly retire after defeat. He was now going to declare a new war using his pen.

  I get the sense from his book CoC and videos of him giving talks on YouTube in Europe that he was not in any way seeking status or prominence.
  

  True. On the other hand one could argue his bid for power failed so in defeat his narrative had to take a very particular slant. If you get 70+ corrections in one chapter of a new book of which you are the editor, this is a strong signal that you're altering doctrines and that you're challenging the status quo. And the status always wants to remain quo.
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  Saintbertholdt

  Out of the [pure] abundance of his heart St.B. speaks.

  I'm a selfish bastard.
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  Saintbertholdt

  They were definitely taking steps toward a kinder gentler organization before Ray and Ed Dunlap left.
  

  In Search of Christian Freedom is a continuation and reformulation of the James Book methinks.
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  Dumplin

  Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.

  I believe RF was not typical of GB members of his era. I had friends at Bethel that said he would mingle with the workers and discuss their personal matters and concerns with them. Ray seemed genuine in his concern for the boys at bethel and how they were doing (according to my friend), while other elites treated him (my friend) harshly. I agree w/ Wasanelder "he was not in any way seeking status or prominence" and I can't impute a takeover strategy to him or even impure motives...don't think it's in his personality. He was a man of conviction caught between a rock and a hard place. He did the best he could do under the circumstances... must've aged him. I'm grateful to him for what he did.
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  Saintbertholdt

  I had friends at Bethel that said he would mingle with the workers and discuss their personal matters and concerns with them. Ray seemed genuine in his concern for the boys at bethel and how they were doing (according to my friend), while other elites treated him (my friend) harshly.
  

  A man of the people for the people. Caesar was beloved too.

  I can't impute a takeover strategy to him or even impure motives...don't think it's in his personality.

  Why would he reformulate the Watchtower doctrine in line with conventional Christianity? This after the 1975 debacle. He omits any personal details of the conflict between him and his uncle to the point where it seems as if the post '77 Watchtower president was just one of the bunch. And that was not the case. Frederick was arrogant and self-important (if you listen to his talks) and had formulated most of the Watchtower doctrine from the late 1930s onward.

  Hell I actually don't know how to stick the dagger into Raymond Franz on this one... he just looked so kind and meek, and was so soft spoken.
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  John Aquila

  Saintbertholdt

  I'm going to be blunt here: I think Franz was making a power play for chief theologian in the late 70's after the 75 failure.

  I had to step out for a while but I did catch this post. What do you mean by Franz making a power play? What's higher than a GB member? Elaborate please.
  
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  rebel8

  That was painful to read, because of my admiration of Ray. However, as a skeptic, I appreciate your skepticism.
  
  It is possible that Ray did think he may write a book and may have been betraying the wts in his final days with them. But at the end of the day, that is not a problem for me. Look at how many people do the same here while trying to escape. Ray and his wife lived at Bethel and he was on the gb--it's not as though he would or could just move out the milisecond he got a doubt. Cognitive dissonance creates these situations of half in, half out.
  
  Obviously if he brought wts property (documents) with him when he left, that indicates betrayal. (I left one high level job at a company because there was illegal conduct going on the company wouldn't address. You bet your sweet you-know-what I brought proof with me when I left, after being sure I wasn't stealing anything or violating any policies. CYA, baby.) So...I can't see why he wouldn't do the same. And thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster he did. He saved a lot of lives.