Round and round the not so marigoround

by Coded Logic 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    I find most Theist arguments to be either confused or dishonest at best. And most of them I regard with mild annoyance. But there is one track of thinking that is so stupid it really gets under my skin: When, in order to try and prop up "faith", people try and tear down reason and critical thinking. Just posted this on a comment thread elsewhere and thought it'd be nice to store it somewhere that I could readily get to it for the future.

    Faith isn't a pathway to truth. I hope that one day you will come to understand that what a person believes - matters. That our beliefs are the gate keepers of our actions. And, as such, we should have good reasons for believing the things that we believe.

    There is no position - no matter how absurd - that cannot be justified by invoking "faith". Because faith is empty. Faith is the answer people give when they don't want to understand things for themselves. It's the answer they give when they can't be bothered to do their homework. It is the epitome of intellectual laziness. The foundation of mental atrophy.

    However, asking questions (or philosophy as you put it) is the complete opposite. Asking questions is a pathway to truth. It is honest and intellectually rigorous. It makes you disciplined in your thinking - and by extension - disciplined in your actions. It allows us to put our good intentions to positive use.

    When I left organized religion I didn't lose my faith. Rather, I found my curiosity. And I hope that one day you will too. I hope that you find the courage to start asking questions. For it is far better to have questions you can't answer than answers you can't question.

  • SoCal101
    SoCal101

    Why the fuck do you care what people believe?

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Because what a person believes informs how they behave. And how a person behaves has consequences for themselves and for all those around them.

    Because the more closely we can get peoples beliefs to line up with reality the better off we all will be.

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    I was raised to look down on philosophy, taught that it was pointless, told that it would screw with my head. I realize now why I was taught that. Because philosophy is at its root the trait of curiosity, which has turned out to be detrimental to my belief in all the things a JW is supposed to believe in. The worst part of it, though, is that I can't help anyone else to see the shortcomings of their faith because they have all been well-trained to ignore those questions as "human philosophy."

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Why should anyone care what others believe SoCal101?

    As the poet John Donne said, “No man is an island”, we are all in this business of life together, we depend on others and someone with dangerous beliefs can harm you or me.

    Most modern terrorism is an expression of fundamentalist theism. Most of the wars today are in lands where belief in God is encouraged as a means of supporting a political agenda. Belief in God empowers the headstrong fanatics to oppose the more rational ‘ungodly’ world and brands them infidels as legitimate targets for destruction. There is no proof or evidence involved just blind prideful cultural belief.

    It is always counter-productive for a human to hold on to beliefs for which there is no evidence. For religion to exist at all, it is a necessity.

  • scratchme1010
    scratchme1010

    When, in order to try and prop up "faith", people try and tear down reason and critical thinking.

    I perfectly understand, and I think I see the context in which you mention that. What really annoys me are those believers that come to "ask a simple question" but don't like the answers they get, then they start showing what they really want to talk about. They start going on and on about what they want to say, completely disrespecting and dismissing any critical thinking.

    However, my personal policy is that I come here to share my thoughts, not to convince anyone of what I believe. I can't care less if people like/dislike, give me thumbs up or down over my thoughts. They belong to me, just like theirs belong to them. As annoying as they can get, the reality is that at the end of the day they all have to live with the choices they make based on their faulty logic.

    Why the fuck do you care what people believe?

    That question can go in your direction too. The question makes no sense in this context, though, considering that this is a forum for people who most likely have the same RELIGIOUS experience as being JWs.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Maybe you find the theistic response which questions human rationality most troublesome because you find it difficult to formulate a "reasonable" response.

    Somehow we don't find it difficult to accept that a dog will never work out a value for Pi or compose a sonnet.

    Yet we find it more difficult to accept the possibility that questions of divine being, ultimate existence, purpose and evil, may be beyond human understanding.

    Why do we presume that the human mind is equipped to settle such matters one way or another?

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    Maybe you find the theistic response which questions human rationality most troublesome because you find it difficult to formulate a "reasonable" response.

    Somehow we don't find it difficult to accept that a dog will never work out a value for Pi or compose a sonnet.

    Yet we find it more difficult to accept the possibility that questions of divine being, ultimate existence, purpose and evil, may be beyond human understanding.

    Why do we presume that the human mind is equipped to settle such matters one way or another?

    You have something of a point, the issue, however, is that there are many people claim to have answers to the questions of divine being, ultimate existence, purpose, and evil. So human reasoning can and should be used to discount the teachings of one who was/is almost certainly either a charlatan or a delusional person.

    I'm not saying one needs to convince every theist that they are wrong, but if a religious person tries to debate me I certainly won't hesitate to rip apart their flimsy arguments.

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000
    Why do we presume that the human mind is equipped to settle such matters one way or another?

    But.....the only people presuming anything are the folks who say they know for sure there is a god somewhere out there who controls everything.

    This, in fact, is the essence of the original post. The OP is saying something like "Look, just because you have faith in something, doesn't make it true".

    And you are saying "Look, it's beyond our understanding, so we just have faith".

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I agree that definite claims about God, his existence or nature are also presumptuous.

    My favourite believer is Rowan Williams because he is anything but presumptuous.

    https://youtu.be/9YAOfER0d-M

    https://youtu.be/9PQHPNhH66M

    https://youtu.be/DQ_GveH4ly0

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