by Island Man 74 Replies latest watchtower bible
One other thing, IslandMan, you do know that Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah or believe in the Gospel accounts right?
You brought up the gospels and their writers and the claims of Jesus' powers-- you are aware that while we Jews can accept Jesus as an historical person, we don't at the same time believe any of the other stuff?
One other thing, IslandMan, you do know that Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah or believe in the Gospel accounts right?
You brought up the gospels and their writers and the claims of Jesus' powers-- you are aware that while we Jews can accept Jesus as an historical person, we don't at the same time believe any of the other stuff?
Yes, I'm aware of that.
See, I just don't get the logic behind Gentiles claiming that one person on the list of those who claimed to be the promised rightful heir to the Davidic dynasty has to be non-existent because of what some of his followers claim about him (miracles, resurrections, etc.). Just because some claim Jesus of Nazareth walked on water doesn't mean he walked on water or that he didn't ever exist. It just means some people claim and believe Jesus of Nazareth walked on water. It doesn't prove the claim of miracle and claims don't disprove the historicity of a person.
If someone claims you healed five people of cancer, does that mean you suddenly are mythical? Or is it that people are just making claims? Just because people lie about you doesn't make you go POOF out of existence, does it?
Also claiming you are the rightful heir to the Davidic dynasty (which is what the Hebrew "Messiah" means by the way) is not saying you are a deity, a son of a deity, or have miraculous powers. The Messiah is just supposed to be the heir to David's throne. The term "Messiah" holds no other promises in Jewish understanding in reference to superhuman claims.
This is why I find the claim puzzling: one person on the list of Davidic claimants was a total fabrication.
Why that particular one? Why not any of the others? Why not Simon of Perea or Menachem Mendel Schneerson? Why just Yeshua of Nazareth? Why does he have to be a myth? If Jewish history can claim Yeshua was evidently real, but not the heir he claimed to be, why so many others obsessed with proving this one person from the list a myth? How do you tell which are myths? Does it to apply to all, some, what?
These are just questions, but I think they are fair. The stories Christians tell might be pure hogwash, but this doesn't mean Yeshua was not as real as any of the other claimants to the Davidic throne.
People believe what they want to. Personally, I looked for evidence of Jesus outside of the bible and didn't find anything. Make of that what you will.
What gets me is how deluded I was with the whole religious bit. People devoting themselves to fiction and fairy tales of magic men in the sky. Good for you. I was that man once too.
Reality is not nice but at least it's real.
I wonder if they'll be believing in Harry Potter as a real person in 2000 years time? Expelly-bloody-amus!
Did Jesus of Nazareth exist? It is quite possible. Did he intend to start a religion called Christianity? No, very unlikely.
I always like to emphasize the point with any Christian I'm having a religious discussion with that their 'god' was actually Jewish. He was an apocalyptic rabbi who thought his Heavenly Father was going to fix all the world's problems in his life time. He wrote nothing down. There is no evidence in the archeological record that speaks about him. They have yet to find pottery, stone or clay shard, or papyrus that is authentic that mentions him. So this all important, Son of God, the supposedly most important human being of all time, was not written about until after he died? It seems odd to me that if his intention was to start a new religion, that if he was this ultimate, uber important, 'perfect' man, that he would have penned, er, I mean, chiselled or quilled, something or there would have been a lot more written about him than what exists today.
Christianity was invented after Jesus died. The ancient religionists borrowed a lot from previous belief systems, they separated evil from God by creating Satan and original sin, which led to the need for a saviour and the church. Why is this? Seems to me it's about power and controlling the masses. Follow the money. It's also about arrogance... most religion seems to have this ideal that 'my god is better than your god'. In ancient times, I think it was about these things but also an attempt at bringing some sort of standardization and stability to the warring tribes of the Middle East. Seems we're still waiting for that to occur, just like Christians are still waiting for Jesus to return.
When I listen to Christian sermons, I wait for it... you know, that moment in the talk where they lay all the blame and guilt on your shoulders and tell you it's all your fault, you're a sinner, you aren't good enough so you need to pray more, confess more, work more as Christ's disciple, and definitely, donate more. It's an interesting exercise... I've yet to see it fail. It happens anywhere from about 1/3 to 1/2 way through the sermon. Check it out next time you listen to something like this... if you can stomach it that is.
Personally, I looked for evidence of Jesus outside of the bible and didn't find anything. Make of that what you will.
in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome.
What was that "mischievous" superstition? Being raised from the dead and showing himself openly of course.
Heaven Says:
When I listen to Christian sermons, I wait for it... you know, that moment in the talk where they lay all the blame and guilt on your shoulders and tell you it's all your fault, you're a sinner, you aren't good enough so you need to pray more, confess more, work more as Christ's disciple,
Christians do not preach sermons like this, cults do. Christianity is unique in that eternal life is acheived it by faith not works "lest any man should boast".
Christians do not preach sermons like this, cults do. Christianity is unique in that eternal life is acheived it by faith not works "lest any man should boast".
Perry, you yourself have stated these typical sinner, guilt-inducing statements right here on this forum. I can dig them up for you if your memory is failing.
