Cain and Abel..... why the disagreements?

by anti-absolutism 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    I've always been given to understand that the sacrafice offered by Abel was pleasing to God because because it was his very best and represented his trust in God's providence, whereas Cain's offering was just from something that he grew, but wasn't first fruits, or even his best, but rather, was offered from his surplus and represented that he did NOT trust in God's providence. The decision to kill Abel was Cain's not God's. In Cain's defense though, no human had ever did, Cain may not have known what would happen when he beat the snot out of Abel.

    Abraham's journey with Issac was a test, not for God, but for Abraham himself. It displayed his trust in God, and that the trust would never be misplaced regardless of how ridiculous the command might seem at the time.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Anybody given any thought to reading the story in context?

    Genesis 4:2-7:Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD . But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

    It seems pretty evident to me that it was Cain's course of life, not the exact nature and circumstances of the sacrifice, that caused God to reject Cain's sacrifice. Offerings of vegetation were not unacceptable to God; grain offerings were common under the Mosaic Law. But God tells Cain plainly that in order to be accepted, he must "do what is right"! Obviously, whatever he had been doing up to this point was not right. He was given the choice of continuing in his sinful course, in which case sin would "have" him, or of mastering his sin, thus overcoming it. Unfortunately, he made the wrong choice.

  • Francois
    Francois

    Joanna, I think you're really close to a huge realization. Not only did Jehovah own the land and because of that he was a natural god for nomads, the people who lived originally in Canaan, Palestine, were not nomads and so their God, Baal, did not own the land, the people owned the land.

    Now here comes the Hebrews who are singing this song, "This land is mine. God gave this land to me." And to boot, they had Ferrante & Teicher playing the piano in the background for them. However, the god of this people, Jehovah, who claimed all the land, was about to give away the farmsteads of all these Baalites to these Hebrew nomads.

    So in the battle of the priests of Jehovah, vs. the real estate agents of Baal, unfortunately the priests won. And there has been no peace in the middle east ever since. Those references to the "high places of Baal"? High places in a flat land don't have to be very high, like three feet, as in a property boundry.

    And there you have the major difference between Jehovah and Baal. Almost none. But the guys who win the wars write the histories, right? That's how come Baal and his followers come off so bad in the OT. The priests of Jehovah wrote the Baalites history 'cause they won.

    See? The so-called divine story of the Jews is nothing more than the tarted up secular history of the Jews masquerading as something it ain't: divine writ.

    As I have said here so many times: JEHOVAH AIN'T GOD. He's just the Jew's favorite embodiment of their idea of God, who was squarely on their side. There is a God of Eternity and Infinity, but It AIN'T Jehovah. And he doesn't like the smell of burning animals and/or thier fat, and he don't get off on baskets full of foreskins.

    So relax. There ain't no Jehovah. He isn't real. And neither are these jerk offs at the WTBTS.

    My two cents.
    francois

  • Liberty
    Liberty

    The Bible offers NO explaination for why Abel was favored over Cain and Bible literalists have been speculating up "reasonable" excuses for God's unfair and irrational behaviour for years now instead of letting the Bible speak for itself. This is yet another story that exposes the reality that the Bible is a man made book of fairy tales and is not the inspired Word of God. This story is full of silly contradictions beyond the strange favoritism of one profession over another (as another poster has stated, don't forget the Hebrews were nomadic animal hearders while most of their enemies were farmers) for examples: who are the people God must mark Cain against so he is not killed since, according to the Bible, only the immediate "First Family" existed at this time and it would have been easy to have Cain run far away from home or just tell Adam and Eve and their other unmentioned children to leave Cain alone? Who was Cain afraid of if there were no other people around? Where did Cain's wife come from and if she was an unmentioned sister why would she want to live with the man who killed her brother? God condemns Cain to live as a nomad yet later Cain settles down and builds a city? If it's just Cain and his sister living as nomads where do all the people come from who will inhabit Cains city? God promises Cain that his mark will protect him from being harmed by another human and yet the Bible later claims Cain was murdered?

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    The Bible offers NO explaination for why Abel was favored over Cain

    Sure it does. See my comments above. The specific nature of Cain's wrong course is not given, but God made it clear to him that for his sacrifices to be accepted, he had to do what was right. It seems ovbious that he had not been doing so.

    God promises Cain that his mark will protect him from being harmed by another human and yet the Bible later claims Cain was murdered?

    Really? Where does the Bible claim that?

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Neonmadman,

    Genesis 4:2-7:Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD . But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

    Just wanted to comment that I think you are reading a lot into the portion you highlighted. It's tempting to mentally expand "if you do what is right" into "if you [Cain] lived a righteous life instead of the life full of sin you have been living." But there is no evidence or indication of any wrongful living or any specific wrong outside of the difference in type of sacrifice. For Abel we do get the extra information: "But Abel brought fat portions" which we probably do have the some right to expand mentally as "the best, fattest, choicest portions." Whether that gives us the right to decide that Cain, on the other hand, must not have given the best portion of his vegetables, I don't know if we can really say. It's a pribable implication. However, I'm just thinking that the extra evidence you seem to have read into "if you do what is right" doesn't appear as valid.

    For me, this reminds me of how I always used to read, especially these Genesis stories, with a need to make them square up with the rest of the Bible, and so I'd fall for the temptation to add to them whatever is needed so that it fit what I think about the rest of the Bible. (That's still a valid way of reading it, of course, for people who read the entire Bible as a single story and therefore can consider any of it as part of the context.)

    "If you do good" (a simpler translation) could just as well expand to, "if you were to give fatty meat instead of vegetables" from what we know in the immediate context. This makes God appear capricious and arbitrary without a "Mosaic" context of "blood sacrifice" and "fat sacrifice". It also makes it look as if God is the one purposely pushing Cain over the edge, pressing his buttons, to prove that Cain can be driven to act on uncontrolled passions from within.

    We have very few choices from context if we wish to soften the story. If we are OK with the "capricious God(s) genre," then we are free to discuss any number of reasons this story was told, remembered, and recorded. Historically, it makes sense that a collection of old Jewish stories would include the conflict of the nomad culture and agri-culture. (see Rogers' and Hammerstein's Oklahoma.) It may also make sense that some priestly collectors wanted to include the story because the Temple "priest-as-butcher" culture was being ignored in favor of the new ideas in Hosea 6:6 and Micah 6:6. ("God wants mercy, not sacrifice.") Perhaps the priests, who kept a tenth of what they butchered, thought they weren't getting enough meat in their diet.

    For me, it appears to have been saved for several possible reasons, but it also fits the capricious God genre that we see in other Genesis stories: e.g, the Garden of Eden (we better not let them eat the the tree of life or they will live forever), Flood of Noah (God got to see that it was bad so he flooded it/God got to see that what he did was regrettable so he promised not to do it again), the Tower of Babel (if we don't stop them, there's nothing they won't be able to do). Other cultures, including other ancient Mid-eastern cultures are famous for collections of "capricious God(s)" stories.

    My 2 cents,

    Gamaliel

  • Valis
    Valis

    Don't forget to do your Theocratic Coloring (TM) for the day..

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • gumby
    gumby

    Don't forget to do your Theocratic Coloring (TM) for the day..

    LOL Valis!

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Cain worked to produce fruit - he didn't just plant seeds and water them, because of his father - he worked hard at "turning the clay", so he considered his "fruit" valuable.

    Abel watched the flock eat the food that God provided, guiding them to greener bits, watching they didn't get too fat etc. - and he understood that God kept providing.

    Cain would have firstly taken away God's food, so he could produce his own - this is the "field" of Cain, the place where he "rises up" - against his brother.

    paduan

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Just wanted to comment that I think you are reading a lot into the portion you highlighted. It's tempting to mentally expand "if you do what is right" into "if you [Cain] lived a righteous life instead of the life full of sin you have been living." But there is no evidence or indication of any wrongful living or any specific wrong outside of the difference in type of sacrifice.

    But there is; it's right there in the text. God speaks of 'doing what is right,' and in the next phrase he explains Himself: "if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door". There are the two ends of the spectrum, "doing what is right" versus "sin". So I don't think that it takes a lot of "reading in" at all to arrive at the conclusion I have derived. Granted that there is no specific mention of prior sin on Cain's part - there is also no specific statement to the effect that it was actually his offering that was deficient. The fact that his next recorded act was the murder of his brother gives me a pretty good idea that his course of life up to that point might have been less than stellar.

    (That's still a valid way of reading it, of course, for people who read the entire Bible as a single story and therefore can consider any of it as part of the context.)

    I think that's a perfectly good way of reading the Bible. The incident of Cain and Abel is referred to later in scripture, as are many other Old Testament events. I suppose that if it is our aim to make the Bible appear flawed, then it makes sense to segment off each section or story and interpret it in a way that is completely foreign to the rest of the Bible. But that is not the way that these stories have been understood historically; Genesis has existed in largely its present form (not in English, of course) for thousands of years. Any assertion that its stories were pre-Hebrew legends that were subsequently "swiped" by the writer of Genesis are strictly speculation without any real manuscript or archaeological evidence (at least that I'm aware of).

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