What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"? (page 2)

snowbird

What does this say about God?

That He is exacting and does not exempt anyone, including Himself, from His standards.

Love.

Sylvia

I think the link between ransom and covering has been missed. Adam & Eve felt the need for coverings as they recognised that they could not stand before God without something to hide behind, but their leaves were not good enough, so animals had to be sacrificed to provide skins as a substitute.

Later on, Moses had to wear a covering on his face after he had talked to God.

The holy of holies was protected from view by a curtain, and the arc had to be covered when it was moved.

There was always a block between God and man.

The temple had a curtain to keep the holy of holies from view, but when Jesus died this curtain was torn from top to bottom showing that the way to God was now open through his death. Christ is now the door to the kingdom.

snowbird

Agreed, except for one point.

There was no block between God and man until sin entered the picture.

By His death, Christ removed that block forever.

I believe that is why when He comes again, EVERY eye will see Him.

I like to think of Jesus of Nazareth as the Big Brother who stands up to the bully - sin.

Of course, He's going to deal with the Evil One, but first things first.

I like these discussions.

Sylvia

Steel

I just love how they dance around this issue and never really teach what the society believes.

Jesus died for seven men in new York and though your works and obedience to this men you will be saved.

Carol1111

I don't know why I put that. I agree there was only a block between God man when sin entered the world. I think that was what I really meant. Sorry.

snowbird

@ Carol1111

Is OK.

Sylvia

snowbird

You may be on to something, Steel.

I believe the WT is on point in its understanding of redeem - the explanation of the go'el, or nearest relative who repurchased a person or his property if things went wrong, is very understandable.

However, it is my belief that WT is way off course on the ransom.

For example, the teaching that Jesus Christ is the archangel, Michael, sent to prove that a human can maintain integrity to the end, thereby upholding God's sovereignty is ludicrous.

How is it that an angel can be called our next of kin?

I realize WT tries to explain this by insisting that Michael/Jesus Christ is the first of God's creation, but I've always questioned that.

Sylvia

Doug Mason

Thanks for your thoughts, which I am taking on board.

I suppose that even though the subject of "Ransom" is fundamental to the Watchtower, for the majority of JWs it becomes a non-issue, since the WTS limits the term and its benefits to its "144,000 Anointed" (Christs).

As I go back over your posts, I gain the idea that you see "Ransom" and "Redeeem" in terms of the cosmic stage (Adam, creation, etc.) and not in terms of any personal meaning.

Do people thus hold to the idea of "Original Sin" and that this is what Jesus' death addressed?

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If I want to "redeem" something from a pawnbroker, my payment to him releases my possession and I re-own it. If someone is kidnapped and held for ransom, then I pay ransom money to the person holding the captive. If these were valid models, they would suggest to me that Satan is the recipient of the payment. Of course we are spealing here of a different culture at a different time, so what did these terms mean to them?

I suggest that Paul is relevant here, inasmuch as he conflated varying Hebraic streams and then mixed into them contemporary Greek concepts. I am, however, ignorant of their ideas, but Paul was aware and was affected by them.

Greek philosophy had an even greater influence on the later Church Fathers as they tried to come to grips with the loose ends left by Paul.

So if Christ's death and resurrection has any personal meaning, what is it? Why did God have to employ Judas, the priests and the Romans before he is able to love and forgive?

Doug

Doug Mason

Sykvia,

I enjoy your open thinking.

I balk at the idea that Jesus pre-existed. I have problems conceiving that a "spirit being" could enter into Mary's fertilised egg. I have problems understanding what emerged from Mary. Did Jesus have a spirit living inside him? Was he only an apparent human? What and who died?

If Jesus were to slip into town, what would he think of Christianity?

Doug

Doug Mason

David Jay,

I appreciate your insights.

As you point out, many Christians view salvation in terms of a judicial, legal model. It is my understanding that this Model does not hold for the Orthodox Churches.

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Yes, while Jesus was a Jew, as were all of the writers, the theories that are bandied about today were drawn up while the gentile Christians marked an increasingly separate pathway from the Jews and incorporated their philosophies and philosophical modes of thinking.

We can, however, identify places in Paul's writings, himself a jew, where he incorporates contemporary Greek ideas.

It is so ironic that Christianity employs Jewish writings and worships a Jew.

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Be proud that you are a Jew. My dad's father was named Abraham; his father was Mosche (Moses); and his father was Yitzhak (Isaac). I never knew any of them but going by their names and by the record of Grandfather Abraham's life, I am certain they were good religious Jews. On the other hand, my maternal grandparents were way out atheist, secular Jews.

The Nazis were not interested in such differences.

No, I have absolutely no experience with Judaism.

Doug

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

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