Willful blindness. Or, sunk cost fallacy. Likely both.
Why are JW's THIS blind?
by BoogerMan 41 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
ExBethelitenowPIMA
There is no contradiction in JW doctrine here
I have said many times these cheap shots do no favours to the apostate community
-
BoogerMan
@ ExBethelite - you are merely repeating your assertion that there is no contradiction with the two statements in the WT, but haven't answered the question:
Do you believe (based on WT dogma) that during the millenium people will be practicing evil deeds? (the act of doing something regularly or repeatedly)
A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.
-
Disillusioned JW
BoogerMan I noticed that you said the following to me. "... thanks for your opinion on what you think the WT is saying regarding "practicing" evil deeds, and that you agree with it". But I did not mean that I agree with that idea of the WT. I just meant I recognize the WT has such a teaching. Regarding what the book of Revelation says, there is much about it which I don't know how to interpret. For some examples consider the following.
The order of many events in the book of Revelation don't seem to be same order as the verses mentioning those events. It is very unclear to me to what degree various descriptions are figurative. Are they mildly figurative or very figurative and very symbolic? For example are a literal 1/3 of trees and 1/3 of grass to be burned up, and is such supposed to happen before the actions of that which is symbolized by the various wild beasts? Do those trees and grass instead represent certain groups of people, and if so, which groups of people? The WT says the those trees and/or grass are Christendom (or the leaders of such and/or the people of such), but I don't think Revelation at all is saying that Christians (even that which the WT calls the people of Christendom) will have woes sent upon them by God as punishment. The book is written to provide hope to Christians, though some of the verses in chapters two through three criticize some congregations of Christians.
When Revelation 20:5 says the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years have added, I don't know if it means that literally (with no resurrections taking place during the 1000 years) or if it means it in the sense that the WT's book called Babylon the Great says it, or in some other sense. The Babylon book points out that that verse is not in some of the oldest manuscripts of Revelation chapter 20, and thus I wonder if the verse is a corruption of the text (something which was added to the text).
Regarding Revelation 6:2 I don't know if the verse is trying to convey the idea that the rider of the white horse is Jesus Christ, or the antichrist, or a false religious leader, or a ruler of a human government, or someone else, or an organization (such a government or empire).
-
BoogerMan
@ DJW:
The September 2022 Study Watchtower, par. 14 p. 18 - in black & white - makes the claim that "...no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world."
But JW's (and some here!) can't see the org "speaking out of both sides of their mouth" on this teaching.
JW's and others who possess the WT CD ROM, only have to look at the many references to John 5:29 to see that the org says people will be practicing vile deeds during the millenium. Just one of many examples:
w65 1/1 p. 20 par. 5 Worship the God of Resurrection - "However, does that mean that even those practicing vile things after their resurrection are going to keep on living in this new system of things? It appears from the Scriptures that those who do not want to change and do good things after being resurrected on earth will be cut off before too many years pass."
As for Revelation, some of the figurative & literal descriptions are down to an individual's interpretation - based on other scriptures and/or reasoning.
-
Disillusioned JW
I have now drastically revised this post after noticing that in Boogerman's most recent post in this topic he/she is quoting from a 1965 WT article and comparing it to a September 2022 WT article. At first I didn't notice that because in an earlier post he/show was comparing two paragraphs from one September 2022 article. I have now read part of the 1965 article.
It appears to me that in the September 2022 article the WT slightly changed their doctrine which they had taught in the w65 1/1 p. 20 par. 5, to say that no one will being practicing vile things after they are resurrected, though also indicating some people might do some vile things after they are resurrected.
I don't plan to make further posts in this topic thread.
-
Disillusioned JW
Though I didn't plan to make a further post in this topic, I have changed my mind. I now say the following.
Note that September 2022 Study Watchtower - p. 18 par. 14 says the WT is stating a change of doctrine. Paragraph 14 of that article says in part the following.
'In the past, we understood Jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things. However, note that Jesus does not say that those who have just come out of the memorial tombs will do good things or will practice vile things. He uses the past tense. He speaks of those who “did good things” and those who “practiced vile things.” This indicates that these actions took place before their death. That makes sense, does it not? After all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world. The unrighteous must have practiced these vile things before their death.'
That shows that the WT (in their September 2022 Study article of the Watchtower called 'Is Your Name in “the Book of Life”?') is stating a change in doctrine, just as I mentioned in my earlier post. Further in the above quote the context within the paragraph makes it clear, when read carefully, that the ones spoken of in the quote are those currently practicing vile things, and those who are dead who had done such in the past, and those who will do such before they die and later become resurrected.
Regarding the September 2022 Study article of the Watchtower called 'Is Your Name in “the Book of Life”?', page 18 paragraph 14 of that article is not contradicting page 19 paragraph 18 of the same article. BoogerMan, Are you so intent in find contradictions in the WT's words, that you didn't try to see if the WT meant their words in page 18 paragraph 14 in a way which does not contradict their words of
page 19 paragraph 18 of the same article?People sometimes say things which though not being a contradiction seem (at first thought) to others to be a contradiction, until the others figure out what the people meant. It is important to figure out what is the intended meaning, rather than automatically assuming there is a contradiction. For example, there are statements in the Bible which appear to be clear contradictions, but upon careful analysis some of those statements are later discerned to not be contradictions. Many words have a range of meanings, and thus in some sentences a word (or a brief phrase) has one meaning but in another sentence the exact same word (or the brief phrase) has a different meaning.
Folks, notice that the change of doctrine stated in the above mentioned article came shortly before the WT announced new governing body members in early 2023 and shortly before Anthony Morris III ceased being a governing body member. Do you think there is connection between such?
The above stated change in doctrine is much more consistent with the Bible than the WT's prior doctrine in the matter. I have noticed that a number of the WT's doctrinal changes in the past 10 years are much more in agreement with the Bible than the older doctrinal versions which were replaced by them. For example, one the doctrinal improvement is the one which says that Gog of Magog is not Satan the Devil. A careful reading of the OT Bible shows that when it writes about Gog of Magog it is writing about a human or group of humans (or of a human government or a group of human governments) instead of about a supernatural being.
-
enoughisenough
if no one will be allowed to do evil deeds, how is it when Satan is released from the abyss, that he will mislead so many as sands of the seas? And the time frame isn't given....So if some are wicked and get destroyed "as a boy" ( by age comparison ) and others become perfect in the thousand years, only to do this all over again...( one would hope that if you survived Armageddon, you would have a one up on the time when Satan is released. ( it seems a fairy tale, but we are here and we came to be somehow and that seems a fairy tale, but I don't believe we are here by some cosmic accident.)
-
Disillusioned JW
enoughisenough, the WT is not saying that during the 1000 years that no one will allowed to do evil deeds. Instead the WT is saying that during the 1000 years that no one will allowed to practice evil deeds. That is a distinction. For example, according to the Bible every human alive commits sin, but also according to the Bible not every human practices sin. I am surprised that some people (ones who are JWs or who have been JWs) on this site don't recognize that distinction. Folks, please read 1 John 2:1-6 (1984 NWT) and 1 John 3:4-8 (1984 NWT) and please compare them with each other. The WT in various articles have explained the difference between doing a sin and repeatedly doing sin (practicing sin), and their 1984 NWT translation of 1 John 3:4-9 is careful to use the word "practices" (the some word used in the WT article from 2022 which was quoted, and the 1965 article says "practicing"), unlike how many other Bibles translate 1 John 3:4-9 (for example in those verses the RSV, the NRSV, and the NKJV say "commits sin" instead of "practices sin").
-
ExBethelitenowPIMA
BoogerMan15 hours ago
@ ExBethelite - you are merely repeating your assertion that there is no contradiction with the two statements in the WT, but haven't answered the question:
Do you believe (based on WT dogma) that during the millenium people will be practicing evil deeds? (the act of doing something regularly or repeatedly)
A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice
-
Im agnostic so can’t answer yes or no. Agnostic means you can’t ever know for sure if it’s intelligent design or chance at the very start of everything.
I can’t answer yes or no to if I believe in God or the Bible.
Im sitting on the fence basically