A problem with the book of Daniel

by wozza 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    Actually there is another answer that is often never considered by JWs and many Christians.

    In the Hebrew Bible, the book of Daniel does not appear in the section of Navi, "The Prophets." Instead Daniel appears in the section of Ketuvim, "The Writings."

    Also, we Jews have an official list of 55 prophets. Guess who is NOT on the list...Daniel.

    Now yes, if you read Daniel as prophecy or history then there are a lot of oddities, maybe more so than what you find in other parts of the Bible.

    But it is not odd for writing in the genre of Apocalypse. In this genre you come across dreams, visions, fables, dramas, political intrigue disguised as battles between monsters, but little if any history. Everything is in signs, all symbols.

    But here is something else that is missing: prophecy. In the strictest sense there is no foretelling of the future, just re-descriptions of the present, especially on the political scene. The intention is to claim that the darkest points of history will always eventually end in Israel's favor, in Jewish theology that is.

    It was Christians who first began to read prophecies into them, especially in reference to their Messiah. So it is odd because you might not be reading it as Apocalypse.

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    By the way, Doug is correct in that the Book of Daniel has to do with the Hasmonian dynasty. The narratives and visions and tales of Daniel are Apocalyptic re-imagings of the intrigue of the period.

    For a book to be prophetic it would have to have to be composed by a nationally recognized prophet of the Jewish nation or their disciples, consist of the public oracles (pronouncements) delivered to the nation, and be completed before the Hasmonian dynasty took control.

    When the Hellenists were conquered by the exploits of Judas Maccabeus and his house became a monarchy, the House of David, which was still partly in Seferad (Spain) after having been located there during the Babylonian exile, stopped in its tracks and did not complete its return to the Holy Land.

    Without a large number of Judeans and some Benjamites in the land, oracles could not be delivered nationally unless they were taken to Iberia too. Except for Obadiah, no oracles were offered for all the Jews in the Diaspora, thus the age of prophets ended. It would be these Jews in Seferad who were later dispelled from Spain with the Alahmbra decree of 1492.

  • Zoos
    Zoos
    And Zoos ......Dan ch4 vs 9 NWT


    I know it's in the bible... just not in the Daniel (as in: Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy!

    ) book.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Caleb,

    I know this is a little off topic, but I can't help being curious about the assertion of a Hebrew community in Spain since the 6th century or so BC, connected with a Diaspora induced by Mesopotamians ( Assyrians or Babylonians).

    How were they supposed to have reached there? Via Tyre or some other Phoenician trade route? What's the evidence?

    Granted the community got there somehow between "then" and 1492, but more obvious routes would be via the Roman and Islamic civilizations that arose in the meantime.

    Kepler

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    Kepler,

    I'm a Sephardic Jew, a descendent of the Jews from Seferad (I will use the alternative spelling of "Sepharad" from this point forward so the connection is easier to make.). Recently Spain passed a law of Aliya ("Right of Return") to me, my family, and other Sephardic Jews who were unjustly sent away from our homes and land during the Spanish Inquisition by means of the Alhambra Decree of 1492.

    Part of receiving one's citizenship back includes learning your history, and fortunately my family spent over 16 years tracing ours back, beginning in the 1990s. So a lot of this is still very fresh in my mind, though I have to admit I didn't know a lot of it before. I am going to simplify it here, and some of the details differ between sources, but here is the gist.

    To begin with, when the First Temple fell, according to Jewish history and tradition, Nebuchadnezzar took the House of David and cared for it in a special place where the descendants of the monarchy could still retain some freedom as well as the dignity afforded royalty. According to tradition and Scripture, the Babylonians had control of the Iberian Peninsula, which is Sepharad or modern Spain and Portugal.

    For instance, Obadiah, which was written not too long after the Babylonian invasion of 587 BCE, states near the end of its brief composition:

    The exiles of this Israelite army will possess the Canaanite land as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad will possess the cities of the Negeb. --Obadiah 20.

    Exactly how Nebuchadnezzar transferred these Jews there is still not known, but even according to non-Biblical tradition that is what happened.

    The return to Jerusalem from Spain after Babylon fell was a very slow process, especially for the Judeans (members of the Tribe of Judah, including the House of David). The history and tradition get very murky here. When we traced our family roots back we found a myriad of stories, nothing definitive and nothing so conflicting either.

    What is known is that the Hasmoneans were never expected to rule, and more than the House of David had an aversion to their exercising kingship over Israel. The only thing we are sure of is that some of the Judeans were back in the Promised Land by this time and some were still in Sepharad. The ascension of the family of Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish throne did, however, stop any further resolve on behalf of the majority of the Judeans still in Spain. And, as we all know, it was from Hasmoneans that (after the introduction of Pompey onto the historical scene) the remnants of this dynasty got mixed with the blood of what eventually became the Herodian monarchy.

    Did all Judeans return to the Iberian Peninsula during the time of the Hasmonean rule? No. Again, according to history, tradition (both Jewish and Christian), and even my family's own tradition and lineage, some members of my tribe remained in Judah until the time of the fall of the Second Temple in 70 CE.

    When the Second Temple fell, the Jews of the Diaspora divided into the two groups we are most familiar with today, with some going north into Ashkenaz (modern Poland, Austria, and Germany), many of which of the priestly Cohen family, and the rest returning to Spain, mostly Judean, some from the tribe of Benjamin.

    The track is hard to follow, but my particular ancestors arrived back in Spain via a trek that took generations, stopping in Rome and Greece along the way. By the time they arrived Islam had risen and taken control of Sepharad--yes, that is how long it took!

    During the persecution of the Spanish Inquisition the Catholic authorities believed that the claims of the Jews they were persecuting, that they were of the royal House of David, was just a ploy to get the Christians to have sympathy for them (as this would mean the Christians were persecuting the very family of Jesus of Nazareth). To this day there are many Catholics who continue to claim that the Jews of Iberia were lying about their connection to the famous dynasty, but the history and traditions (though not entirely conclusive) do speak otherwise. And as the Catholic Church is now helping those of Sephardic ancestry to uncover their roots (for some reason the Catholic Church kept very accurate records of who they persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition, how, when, and why), it is becoming increasingly clear that there is a big "gulp" in the throats of many as the claims to Judean and Davidic ancestry are becoming harder and harder to dismiss.

    What routes were taken? How did the reach these places? Where is all the evidence? Not all of it is there. We know where we were at during certain points of history, but how we got from point A to B is not always yielding.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Thank you, Caleb. This is an interesting subject. I am glad that families who lost so much in Spain have been invited to return with some recompense. But as to the question of how or when they arrived, I still have to wonder.

    It seems like plenty of more likely opportunity in subsequent centuries. Nebuchadnezzar besieged Phoenician cities, but I don't see how he inherited regions that ended up as part of the Carthaginian Empire. Very murky part of history.

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    Murky is truly the word for it. And as I pointed out, Obadiah's one-verse reference is the only Scriptural evidence outside Jewish tradition that this happened after the First Temple fell.

    My questions are why so far, even if Nebuchadnezzar had control of the area? 2 Kings 25.27-30 does mention that Jehoiachin was given "a throne higher than that of the other kings who were with him in Babylon," so there is some Scriptural reference to the Davidic dynasty being raised up and treated in a special way during the exile. But was this throne in Sepharad?

    Whatever happened, it is equally curious that after the fall of the Second Temple, the Judeans and remnant of the House of David chose Sepharad to relocate. Why go so far away? Obviously they had a connection that did indeed predate the Roman invasion otherwise choosing such a long trek that took generations is equally hard to fathom.

    So many questions, so little answers.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette
    Ummm, there's more than ONE problem with the book of Daniel.
  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    CalebInFloroda: To begin with, when the First Temple fell, according to Jewish history and tradition, Nebuchadnezzar took the House of David and cared for it in a special place where the descendants of the monarchy could still retain some freedom as well as the dignity afforded royalty. According to tradition and Scripture, the Babylonians had control of the Iberian Peninsula, which is Sepharad or modern Spain and Portugal.

    There does not seem to be any secular reference to Nebuchnezzar's political or military authority reaching as far as modern day Spain.

    The web-site Livius, which may be regarded as speaking with some authority, certainly does not mention it, not, at least, in my rather hurried scanning.

    Link: http://www.livius.org/articles/place/babylonian-empire/

    I think the confusion has arisen, somewhere, somehow, between the Iberian peninsula and the Kingdom of Iberia located in Asia, near Georgia.

    Wikipedia is not the best reference in the circumstances, but I choose it because it has a reasonable map.

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Iberia

    As you can note, both the location and the dates of this Asian Iberia fit the historical details.

    BTW, If we are seeing the bible as a historical record, it is quite specific as to the numbers of people deported to Babylon, actually not a very large group of people in total and clearly comprising the elite, who ( from their own viewpoint) comprised the 'nation'. The common people were not deported and the land was never left physically desolate, although in the view of the elite, it may have been spiritually desolate.

    ----------------------------------

    2. This is not an argument that there were no Jews in what we now call Spain. There are many references to Jewish migrants in many locations in both the Hellenic and Roman empires. The Jews who refused to return to Jerusalem and stayed behind in Babylon became famous as traders, with groups of Jews in all the major trade markets of the east-west trade network (the silk road). One collection, known as the Radhanites (although that may have been a tag that referred to all) were particularly active in the Euro-Asian slave trade and are reputed to have maintained a facility in Verdun for castrating boys for the eunuch market.

    ---------------------

    3. At this link: ( http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf ) there is a copy of, 'A New English Translation of the Septuagint,' published by Oxford University Press. The Introduction may be of interest to some readers here.

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister
    Thank you Caleb, I really enjoy your posts. We have an English historian (from just up the road from me in Pimlico) Simon Schama. He made a series (with accompanying book)called ' The History of the Jews' - well worth watching - one episode was devoted to the Sephardim of Spain. His own families roots lay in Sephardic Spain and as he examined a beautifully illustrated Tanakh and he became quite emotional and also angry at the wanton destruction of so much Sephardic culture. You see this book had something no modern Jewish Holy book has, trully beautiful illustrations of angels, of people animals etc . Despite everything that the Jewish people had been through in the last two thousand years, this destruction of such a rich culture is what grieved him the most.

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