by ISP 29 Replies latest jw friends
A. I don't see anywhere in the scripture from James where discipline is mentioned. Fascinating how quickly the Watchtower moves from confession and forgiveness to confession and discipline. How did Nathan discipline David?
B. We all know David was really in love with Jonathan and the whole Bathsheba thing was cover.
C. That greasing with oil part sounds hot. If that had been thrown in I would have been confessing all the time.
feeling better hugs
Joel
PS. I never realized before that there was a prescribed command to confess sins to the elders. This is in no way different from the Catholic church.
I am aghast at the statement that confessing to god in prayer IS NOT ENOUGH. That your spiritual relationship to the elders is MORE important that your spiritual relationship to god. Doesn't this set up the elders as mediators between god and men. We are required to supplicate to the elders in order for god to forgive our sins.
This is the most extraordinary thing I have read from the Watchtower in years.
stunned hugs
Joel
once again we see the paper trail of wt being it's worst ememy
when wt wants to play dumb they resort to "WE BE IMPERFECT"
when they want to invoke DIVINE AUTHORITY they speak of how in elders school that Elders recieve the finest training on the face of the earth due to being provided by Jah visible org.
here is another example of playing both sides of the field
James
###################
Paducah Sun 1-28-01
Both Brown and Moreno said that the elders, who volunteer and are essentially untrained clergy, might err in their application of a policy both believe puts protecting children first
Questions From Readers 6-1-01
In view of Jehovah’s willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for Christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?
Skillful elders can do much to ease the pain of heart that is felt by the remorseful sinner.
followup question to any JW
How many of you would want an "Untrained Volunteer" to do your surgery?
So how can an Untrained Volunteer Surgeon be "Skillful"?
these are the types of questions that any of you JW out there who are using "Critical Thinking" need to ask yourselves.
since you are entrusting your very lives in the hands of these men
Confession should be to God through Christ. The Bible makes that obvious enough. However, the WT insists on elders hearing confessions because it gives the elders a good blackmailing tool and undue authority over the flock. If congregation members confessed to God through Christ, what would all those judicial committees do? Those elders ready to get the "juicy details", where else would they have their ears tickled?
When I served (oh yeah, I actually did), a colleague elder was so fond of asking for those very details, especially in sexually-related matters. I was often struck by his voyeurist bend. Two years later, he was in turn disfellowshipped for messing around with his fiancee (who turned both of them in).
The position of the elders is in effect one of qualifying Christ’s ransom sacrifice. It is as if Christians cannot be trusted to determine their own confession and repentance, despite it being a personal matter between the wrongdoer and God. The so-called ‘assistance’ is more like an intrusion in what should be a private situation.
If anyone confesses wrongdoing to the elders a Judicial Committee will be formed. The elders then do ‘heart surgery’ with a bread knife. The result is that a good number are disfellowshipped or disassociated because of the perceived lack of repentance.
ISP
being not catholic i never confessed to a priest, but my mother does. i know you guys don't know the difference between the JW and catholic confessions so i thought i would let you know how it really is with them.
well when you confess to a priest there is only one man, he need not see you, you need not go to your local church so he will not know you, if you want it that way. when you do your pennence wcich consists of prayer meditating on your sins.
to the catholics it is the christ who forgives us sinners and when thay are forgiven thay are gone, no more. thay can't be used against you because thay have been forgiven and are not your sins any longer. a priest can not tell anyone your confession. to tell a coneffession is one of the worst things a priest can do. (i know your hate got you and you said no it isn't. WT training, see it for what it is)
priests just don't have the power that elders have over the lives of there congregations. priest perform ceremonies for them that is about it.i have never heard of a confession being used to hurt a catholic
that being said, i personally don't see any biblical instruction to confess to a man.
the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.
In my first response to this post I highlighted the word skilled used in the article to describe the elders and repeat it is outrageous to think any of them are skilled enough to deal with the problems great enough to move a person to feel they are supposed to confess to elders.
ISP
I like your comparison of the help a person receives is like a surgeon doing heart surgery with a bread knife. I've many times made the statement that too many repentant ones end up df'd or da'd anyway due to the judgement of untrained, imperfect, power-wielding men who have no more ability to read hearts than a 3-yr-old.
JT
I also like your question "How many of you would want an "Untrained Volunteer" to do your surgery?"
That says a mouthful. I will remember that and may use it sometime on a family member who is reaching out for elder privileges, only perhaps word it to him like: do you really feel, as an untrained volunteer, you should feel qualified to perform surgery? That's what trying to help an alcoholic, or a drug user, or a molester, or someone suicidal or anyone who qualifies for professional help, would be compared to.
You said alot in the 2 simple examples of JW doublespeak: If they err, its because they are untrained and imperfect. But they do receive the finest training on the face of this earth by God's visible org.
Huh????
It amazes me how clear all these things are now to me. I can't believe how naive I was, but I guess when that's all you've ever known, it can take awhile for the 'fog' to clear out.
Wondering why it took me so long before I...
Had Enough
hey Deacon check this out from the article.........
Even if a person does not voluntarily confess his sin, he may still be moved repentance when approached by the elders, as David was when approached by Nathan. The support thus rendered by the elders helps the one to avoid the danger of repeating the sin and the serious consequences of becoming a hardened practicer of sin.—Hebrews 10:26-31.
ISP
: He felt that confession to God in prayer was enough, but clearly it was not, for he experienced feelings similar to King David’s. (Psalm 51:8, 11) How much better to accept the loving assistance that Jehovah provides through the elders!
Translation: God ain't big enough to handle the problem, but needs the assistance of uneducated window washers appointed by a lying religious printing corporation to help him out.
Makes perfect sense to me!
Farkel
