the sounding of the trumpet

by enoughisenough 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sea Breeze

  from the dots I had connected it appears to me that even that first resurrection wouldn't start until the last day.( instead of an ongoing resurrection as soon as people die )

  Correct enough is enough. 2 Cor. 5: 8 says that believers are present with the Lord when they die and are absent from the body.

  But, this is not a resurrection. A resurrection occurs when the body is raised. The reason that the WT has to claim an "ongoing resurrection" is because they teach that nothing happens at death..... other than ceasing to exist and unconsciousness. This is a very ear-tickling teaching. Jesus says otherwise and the stakes are much higher. We will also by be conscious somewhere.

  "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul" - Jesus
  

  So where I am sitting, I don't think the first resurrection has started where in immorality is put on, let alone the second resurrection.

  Agreed, except for Jesus. He was bodily resurrected with a "glorified" body. After his resurrection, he was able to appear in rooms without walking in. Yet, he said that he was not a spirit and invited others to touch him. He was fully resurrected (reconstituted in body, soul & spirit) and went to heaven that way. Scripture says when he appears at the sound of the trump, "we shall be like him".
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  Vidqun

  Enoughisenough, don’t know whether this will help. According to this German dictionary, John’s resurrection and Matthew’s judgment is not the same thing. The context differs. Bottom line, the Society's 1914 beliefs do not make sense. Jesus will only start his 1000 year reign when Satan is bound (Rev. 20:3, 4):

  Resurrection (John)

  "The juxtaposition of "resurrection to life" and "resurrection to judgment" in John 5:29 speaks of the eschatological resurrection of all who are in the grave and the eschatological judgment by the Son of Man. Since there is a certain tension between this and the realized eschatology asserted in vv. 24f., it is often judged to be an interpolation (by the author or a redactor). However, future eschatology is to be found also in the speech about bread in John 6 (also in interpolations?) where ἀνίστημι (used trans.) clearly denotes Jesus as the originator of eschatological resurrection: "I will raise him up at the last day" (6:40, 44, 54, cf. v. 39). In 11:24 Martha understands Jesus' promise of resurrection for Lazarus in an eschatological sense: "he will rise again in the resurrection [figura etymologica] at the last day." Jesus corrects this hope by referring to himself as "the resurrection and the life" (v. 25); i.e., in Johannine language, he is in his own person the cause and embodiment of what is hoped for in the form of resurrection and а ζωή. Whoever believes in him has a share in it now already and, indeed, forever."

  Judgment (Matthew)

  Difference here is that those in Tyre, Sidon, Nineveh, Sodom and the Queen of Sheba were ignorant, whereas the religious leaders were not.

  "Jesus' statements regarding those who refuse his message of salvation speak of the eschatological judgment ("the day of judgment"). Such people have a greater responsibility than the prototypical places of sin and Gentile cities (Sodom, etc.) and than the queen of the South (Matt 10:15; 11:22 par. Luke 10:14; Matt 11:24; 12:41, 42 par. Luke 11:31, 32)." See EDNT.
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  EasyPrompt

  A Timeline...

  
  

  (1) Anointed all "sealed". Jesus is enthroned in heaven.

  
  

  (2) Jesus kicks out the Devil, the great tribulation begins on earth.

  
  

  (3) Religious institutions destroyed by the United Nations and associated governments. Refining of true Christians on earth out of all denominations and places, removal of false doctrines and clergy "leaders". Jesus as head of all true Christians.

  
  

  (4) During 3 1/2 years (the appointed times of the nations, aka the great tribulation) governments have final opportunity to try to make a go of world rulership apart from God. Christians must maintain integrity and show allegiance to Christ and his kingdom by keeping faith and showing love and telling the truth about how the kingdom is coming soon to fix things and the all the earthly governments will be removed. Some formerly non-religious people will join us at that time in wanting to learn about and worship God. Others who had lost faith will also rejoin us at that time.

  
  

  (5) Sometime after the 1260th day, the resurrection of the anointed ones who have died will take place, and the anointed who have not died will be "changed". The nations will see it and freak out. Again, some more will join us at that time.

  
  

  (6) After the anointed have been around for a little while in changed materialized form, then they will all be gathered together with Jesus for the final part of the Armageddon battle, to protect all who want to worship God and to destroy those who would hurt God's little ones. Everyone will see them. The Devil will be locked up, the 1000 year reign will begin, and others will be resurrected during that time. Jesus and the anointed will walk the earth during that time.

  
  

  (Just a note, when it says "the birds will eat their flesh" its figurative for "the angels". The angels will dispose of the bodies, not literal birds. Other parts of the Bible say "the name of the wicked will rot" and in the minor prophets when speaking about "rotting" it is figurative in context.)

  
  

  (7) At the end of the 1000 year reign, after the final test, Jehovah will also walk the earth and be with all His kids.
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  EasyPrompt

  https://youtu.be/hpzEJPz0xsI

  (video is less than one minute, displays scriptures in chart form explaining 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, the last chart shows scripturally that the resurrection of the anointed will not occur until after the 1260th day of the great tribulation)
  
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  Vidqun

  EasyPrompt, here's my version of the timeline for what it's worth. Two witnesses will start their public ministry after the 6th trumpet blast according to Revelation chronology. Their ministry would last 3 1/2 years, ending with the onset of the 5th plague. The first resurrection would then take place in the days of the 7th trumpet. Half of the tribulation: 3 1/2 years. The second resurrection would start after Armageddon (cf. Dan. 12:13).

  1) Sum total: Great Tribulation + Battle of Armageddon: 1,290 days + 1,335 days = 2,625 days

  Day of the LORD: 2,625 days - 2,520 days = 105 days or 3½ months. The full duration of the LORD’s Day is therefore 105 days or 3½ months (from the end of the Tribulation to Armageddon). Only after 2,625 days had run their course, would the surviving observers be declared happy (Dan. 12:11-13; cf. Rev. 7:9, 14). The last chapter of Daniel and the activities of the King of the North here should be seen within the context of the Great Tribulation (Dan. 11:40-12:1, 4, 7, 10).

  2) 360 days + 1,260 days + 105 days = 1,725 days

  Evening-morning: 1) The two nouns are singular. 2) Lit. an “evening-morning” time unit (not time, year or day), resulting in a most unusual time scale. 3) Evening in Hebrew means when the sun goes down. Morning means first light, when the sun comes up, until midday when the sun is at its zenith. Afternoon, when the day starts to fade, is not part of the equation. 4) One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days. This literal interpretation does not necessarily deviate from Hebrew usage (Dan. 8:14, 26; cf. Ex. 16:8-13; 1 Kings 17:6).

  Day of the LORD: 1,725 days - (1,260 days + 360 days) = 105 days or 3½ months. In other words, 1,725 days - (360 days + 105 days) = 1,260 days of the second half of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:13, 14). I believe the duration of the Tribulation to be 7 years or 2520 days. The length of both trumpet blast and plague would then be in the vicinity of 180 days each, provided plague and trumpet blast are of the same length (180 days x 14 trumpet blasts/plagues = 2520 days). King of the South as part of Beast from the abyss will only start launching attacks on God’s people and the two prophets after the sixth trumpet blast (Dan. 7:25; 8:11-14; 11:40; cf. Rev. 9:4, 12, 13; 11:2-8, 14, 15). Trumpet blast 6&7: 180 days x 2 = 360 days.

  3) The LORD’s Day: Jehovah’s Day = 105 days or 3½ months (without sunrise or sunset) = 1 “day.” See Zech. 14:1, 6, 7.
  
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  EasyPrompt

  Hi Vidqun🙂

  
  

  Genesis says: "An evening, a morning - one day."

  
  

  1 Evening + 1 Morning = 1 Day

  1 Evening = 1/2 Day

  1 Morning = 1/2 Day

  1/2 Day + 1/2 Day = 1 Day

  2300 (Evenings and Mornings) = 1150 Evenings + 1150 Mornings = 1150 Days

  
  

  In Daniel 8:14 the 2300 evenings and mornings are 1,150 days.

  
  

  A lot of the visions of Revelation overlap and are actually depicting the same event from a slightly different angle.

  
  

  Armageddon could refer to the entire situation during the great tribulation, but the actual final "battle" will be instantaneous, not drawn out.

  
  

  The timeframe of the 3 1/2 years is repeated several times in the Daniel, Revelation, and the gospels in slightly different ways: "time times and half a time" or "3 1/2 times" or "42 months" or "appointed times of the nations" or "1260 days" etc.

  
  

  Just like in Joseph's interpretation for Pharoah, the seven years with the wheat and cows were repeated to show it was sure to happen.

  
  

  Just like in Daniel the repeated progression of world powers in several different dreams/visions showed it was sure to happen.

  
  

  The 3 1/2 years of great tribulation when the UN rules as dominant world power and removes all religious institutions is sure to happen.

  
  

  But also sure to happen is the resurrection of the anointed. Since they are all "killed" by the 1260th day, the resurrection/change for them takes place after that point, which is in harmony with Jesus' words in the gospels regarding the timeline of the great tribulation.
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  EasyPrompt

  
  
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  Vidqun

  EasyPrompt, not that I want to belabor the issue, but 3 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days. Not sure where your 1,150 days fit in (I understand now after seeing your chart).

  In Revelation 3 1/2 years is connected to the public ministry of the two prophets, the trampling of the courtyard of the temple and the hiding of the woman from the dragon. Daniel connects it to the 3 1/2 years of harassment of God's people by the big horn. Last but not least, it its mentioned in connection with the breaking of the power of God's people.

  Where do you read "Day of the LORD" or Armageddon is an instantaneous event? Did you read Zechariah 14? Everything will be "congealed," frozen. No sunrise or sunset. One day, however long it takes.

  And to repeat, the creative days of Genesis 1 are completely unconnected to Daniel's 2,300 evening-morning time scale. Not sure how you connect the two.

  I am also not sure how you connect the resurrection with the end of 1,260 days. Perhaps you can explain that to me.

  7 trumpet blasts (first half). 7 plagues (second half). So 5 months would occur in the days of the fifth trumpet. Locust-scorpions will torment all, not only the religious folk. Babylon will only be destroyed at the end of the tribulation (in the days of the 7th plague).

  I have a problem with 2,300 until the holy place is brought into its right condition. That will only be after Armageddon (cf. Dan. 12:7 and the second half of the tribulation IMHO)..

  I agree with the 1,290 days.

  I see your 1,290 and 1,335 days overlap. Is there a basis for that? Only hope for your shortened version of the great tribulation is if the days were cut short.
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  EasyPrompt

  Revelation says the "two witnesses" prophesy in sackcloth 1260 days.

  
  

  In the vision eating the little scroll, John was told in vision to preach again.

  
  

  During the 3 1/2 years, there will still be a preaching to be done, even though the religious institutions will have been destroyed.

  
  

  The "3 1/2 days" in the two witnesses vision is representative of the 3 1/2 years, just like in Joseph's interpretation for Pharoah, the seven cows meant seven years, the seven stalks of wheat meant seven years. The context of Revelation and the prophecies in Daniel show the 3 1/2 days are 3 1/2 years.

  
  

  After 3 1/2 years of preaching in difficult circumstances, the anointed still alive will be changed and the anointed who have died will be resurrected. All together they will join Jesus and protect all sheeplike people from extermination by the UN.

  
  

  
  
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  EasyPrompt

  Revelation is in signs. The plagues/trumpets/bowls are not taking place in timeline order. They are visions that depict some of the same actions from different angles, just like Daniel's visions.

  
  

  The Nebuchadnezzar's dream image in Daniel depicts the progression of world powers. The beast visions of Daniel chapter 7 and Daniel chapter 8 depict the same progression from a slightly different angle. Daniel chapters 11 and 12 depict it again from a slightly different angle.

  
  

  Joseph interpreted Pharoah's two dreams. They meant the same thing. They were depicted from a slightly different angle.

  
  

  The plagues in Revelation are on false religion. They are depicting the destruction of false religious institutions, just like the plagues in Egypt destroyed false religion. The plagues in Revelation are figurative of the destruction of false religious institutions.

  
  

  The bowls of God's anger are figurative, also depicting God's judgment on the religious institutions and governments.

  
  

  The trumpets are loud announcements of God's wrath on false religious institutions and then the governments.

  
  

  They are depicting the same thing in different ways. They overlap in many ways, they are not necessarily presented in time order.

  
  

  The 3 1/2 days of the two witnesses vision is another way to present the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation, similar to how in Daniel there was a weeks of years vision, except in Revelation the 3 1/2 days is a days of years, in other words, a short period of time. The Devil will be cast down for a short period of time, 3 1/2 years. The preaching done during difficult circumstances will be for the 1260 days, which is 3 1/2 years. Christians will be kept safe in the wilderness-like time of the 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, of the great tribulation when there will be no religious institutions to take "refuge" in. Jehovah and Jesus will be our refuge during that time.