Defining Christianity

by Carmel 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy
    However, if I beleive that there are other "annointed ones" (Christs) although I still honor and accept Jesus as the "son", am I no longer a Christian? I have enlarged the definition of "Christ" to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

    There is no question but that there have been other ‘anointed’ ones, David for one. And it’s true that the title ‘Christ’ means ‘anointed one’ . But when this term is applied to Jesus the term becomes a title. Please note Matt 16:16

    Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    Some translations use the Hebrew equivalent ‘messiah’ here. But do you see where this becomes a title for Jesus? Please note:“THE Christ”. He is never referred to as: “Jesus, A Christ”. When one uses the term “Christian” it is not understood to mean that he is a follower of Moses or Aaron or David, or Cyrus, or any of the others in the Bible that have had that term applied to them. None of those individuals were ever referred to as ‘the Christ’ or ‘the messiah’.
    I don’t know what you mean by ‘the exclusiveness of Jesus’. As far as being called a “a Jesusian.” That would merely be an obfuscation. In Jesus’ time the name ‘Jesus’ was not an uncommon one. ‘Jesus Christ ‘ or simply ‘Christ’ was another matter. It was his first century followers that named themselves ‘Christians’ (Acts 11:26). They defined that term by being the first to apply it to themselves. To try to re-define that term is ‘muddying up the waters’ in my opinion. Why would we want to do that? We have plenty of words in our languages, let’s use another one or we can make one up if we like. But to re-define what was first established 2000 years ago is a whole lot like someone else we know that likes to play with words.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

    Edited by - Frenchy on 30 June 2000 8:15:9

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Frenchy,

    Not my intent to muddy the waters or to redefine what the early christians called themselves. My point was that when a "christian" tells me that I am not a "christian" because I accept the spiritual station of other "christs" I find that exclusivity distasteful and frankly incorrect.

    When the term Christ came into usage as you rightly indicate, the followers of Jesus knew of no other person, I suspect, that they could compare to Him. No other "Messiah" no "Christos" or "Christ". Referring to Him as Thee Christ would be perfectly appropriate. Muslims accepted Jesus as the "son of god" but not in a carnal way but a spiritual station of "sonship". This alienated most contemporary Christians as it was seen to demean the station of Jesus as not being the "only begotten son" forgetting tha the king of Jerusalem was a "begotton son of God".

    So my point is that I consider my self a "christian" in that I also accept Jesus as the son of god and christ. The fact that I see others as christs seems to be unacceptable to most christians of traditional stripes.

    carmel

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Carmel:

    My point was that when a "christian" tells me that I am not a "christian" because I accept the spiritual station of other "christs" I find that exclusivity distasteful and frankly incorrect.


    You are not a Christian if you do not meet the criteria that was first established by those first century followers of Jesus Christ. It's that simple. They did not accept any other Christ but Jesus. I think Paul made a good argument for this in his letter to the Ephesians, particularly the fourth chapter.
    Now you can re-define the term 'Christian' to mean anything that you want it to but when you do that you end up with a 'customized' definition and must realize that no one else is obligated to accept this 'personal' definition of the term. I might add that you are not the only one that is doing this. The great majority of so-called 'Christians' do the very same thing. So when someone tells you that you are not a Christian perhaps the two of you should decide on a common definition of the term before arguing about who's what and who's not.
    For instance, JW's consider not only consider themselves Christians but 'The Only True Christians'. Many other faiths do not consider them Christians at all. Why is that? There is no agreement on the definition of what 'Christianity' is between the parties involved. Catholics consider themselves Christians but not all faiths agree with their assesment. Why? Same reason. The problem lies in terminology and labels and defintions.
    If you subscribe to what Jesus Christ taught and live your life accordingly, then you are a follower of Christ. That much should be clear. but then by so doing are you a 'Christian? I would think that would be the touchstone for the evaluation.
    Here is another problem. Not everyone is in agreement as to what he actually taught. For example, some say he taught that he and his father were one and the same. Others say he taught the opposite. Now who is the Christian?
    It's pointless to argue whether or not you are a Christian unless an agreement is reached by all parties involved as to what constitutes a Christian.

    So my point is that I consider my self a "christian" in that...

    Do you see what you are doing here? That you are a Christian is YOUR consideration based on your own defintion which follows your statement above. No one else is obligated to accept that defintion so that should not anger you.

    Now a show of hands from all of you here, how many of you are Christians?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

    Edited by - Frenchy on 1 July 2000 12:24:10

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    I consider myself a Christian....very definitely. (hand raised and waving wildly)

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    The French Knight recognizes the woman seated upon the red horse.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Dubby
    Dubby

    I definitely BELIEVE in Christ Jesus. Am I doing everything a Christian, according to the Bible, ought to be doing? Probably not. But, are all of the examples in the Bible of true Christians and their activities what we today ought to be doing today? I don't know.

    "Enjoy God's creation, ride a dirt bike!"

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy
    But, are all of the examples in the Bible of true Christians and their activities what we today ought to be doing today?

    I'm curious as to what you mean by this, Dubby. Is there anything specifically that the first century Christians did that we should not do today?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Dubby
    Dubby

    Frenchy,

    I guess what I mean is, should we, or do we need to replicate what Jesus and/or the apostles did in their day? Commands and suggestions were given to those that were present in those early days. I know this is an old JW arguement, but I'm rethinking it now. What parts of the Gospel REALLY apply to us today? What part if any of Revelation applies to us, or does it apply at all to anything? Was the Bible really meant to last to our day and be taken seriously or literally?

    Since my only religious training has been through the WTBTS, I feel that I need to scrap most of what I learned, and possibly start over. I'm so disappointed with the Society, that I feel that I can't believe ANYTHING that they taught me. I've seen so much deceit and untruthfulness from the WTBTS, that it sours a lot of my faith in the Bible. If they are wrong about so many things, is every religion? Are we better off just reading the bible by ourselves and maybe discussing with others? I don't know. I'm in a very skeptical mode about religion, yet I feel the need to talk about it. Maybe I haven't found my niche yet.

  • Dubby
    Dubby

    Frenchy,

    I'm sorry for my vague replies. It's just that the WTBTS has me so befuddled on a number of teachings. The blood issue, going out in service(their way), their legalistic approach to religion, disfellowshipping, etc. Their teachings are very unique from other religions. I've come to the conclusion that they are wrong on these and other issues. But what is right? I'm at the point where I don't know. I don't want to get dogmatic about religious issues because I've been proven wrong too often.

    If the WTBTS has messed me up so much, what's the next religion going to do? I've heard so many "worldly" people say; "I don't want any part of organized religion." Now, after much secular study and thought, I have to agree with them.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Dubby,

    Me too.

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