Paul did not belittle women

by Doug Mason 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Village Idiot

  What, pray tell, was written by Paul?
  
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  Saename

  slimboyfat - Was 1 Cor 11:3 written by Paul?

  Some do indeed argue that this passage is an interpolation, but it's a minority view. Most likely it was written by Paul.

  waton - was 1Cor. 14: 33-38 written by "Paul" ?

  That (1 Cor. 14.34–35) is an interpolation. Firstly, vv 34–35 tell women to be silent, but that was not Paul's position. He, in his epistle to the Romans, names a female minister in Cenchreae (Phoebe—Rom. 16.1) and a female apostle in Rome (Junia—Rom. 16.7). Additionally, he already mentions in the very same epistle—1 Cor. 11.5—that women can indeed speak up in church (and prophesy) but need to wear head-covering.

  Secondly, this passage about women disrupts the flow of the chapter. Before vv 34–35, Paul is talking about prophecy, and indeed, he also talks about prophecy even after these two verses. This passage about women simply appears out of nowhere. Hence, it's a majority view that this is an interpolation.

  Doug Mason - Paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles. He wrote that in God's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in God's sight.

  Agreed. One can criticise Christians who claim that the New Testament itself is divinely inspired while it contains misogynistic passages, but Paul himself can hardly be called a misogynist. He definitely wasn't as progressive as we are today (telling women to wear head-coverings in 1 Cor. 11.5 for instance), but calling him a misogynist is a bit too much.

  3rdgen - If God inspired the Bible, why didn't he prevent confusion as to exactly what the message is. Why would he allow passages or books to be included that don't belong?
  

  That's one of my objections against the Christian God as well. It doesn't make sense to me.
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  waton

  origins aside, these are the texts that WT is working with. To my mind they are not putting women down, but help ladies to focus on activities that have served the human race well to evolve until now. Is the role of humans changing? There is an interesting science story on "why orcas have menopause" so it is not a put down, it is a put up, to their real task. imho.
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  Saename

  waton, what are you saying exactly? That women should be below men because of biology, and because it has served the human race "well"?

  How do you know how it would have served the human race if women were equal to men from the very beginning? You don't know, so I don't think you can claim that the role of women has served us "well."
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  LisaRose

  What difference does it make who wrote those passages? It's still in the bible, allowed to be in the bible by God, if you believe the bible is inspired. Those words have been used for centuries to dominate and subjugate women, all in the name of God, and are still being used to this day by backwards religions like the JWs.
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  Saename

  LisaRose - What difference does it make who wrote those passages? It's still in the bible, allowed to be in the bible by God, if you believe the bible is inspired. Those words have been used for centuries to dominate and subjugate women, all in the name of God, and are still being used to this day by backwards religions like the JWs.
  

  Right. To those of us who study the NT only from the historical perspective it's of great importance. (It's funny, but there are actually atheists who are interested in early Christianity for purely historical reasons. You'd think only Christians would be interested in these things, huh...) Nonetheless, whenever I debate Christians on these topics, I definitely use those misogynistic passages (and otherwise primitive verses) to criticise the allegedly divinely inspired Bible. It's only when I'm doing my historical studies that it becomes significant that Paul wasn't a misogynist. It's also fascinating because of how later Christians argued the role of women in Christianity. The "feminist" side used Paul's writings as much as the misogynistic side did. It's quite fascinating if one likes history.

  But anyway, I agree with you that it's rather inconsequential when it comes to whether the Bible is divinely inspired.
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  waton

  Saename. I see the traditional family, as a protective unit to keep the flame of life glowing, the great ladies mastering the internal warmth, and the men dealing with the challenges at the periphery, protection, furnishing food, dealing in the tactics, the strategies. Bearing children is such a tremendous, fulfilling task, that it should satisfy any aspirations. imho, bsw,

  I do not feel that women are not equal to men, to the contrary, they have the superior position in life, more important to our arrival, survival, the beauty charm and warmth. why any lady would feel like a failed man, is not understandable to me.

  You are responsible for our arrival. why do you need to be our rival?
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  LisaRose

  Bearing children is such a tremendous, fulfilling task, that it should satisfy any aspirations. imho, bsw

  Hogwash. I am 62, my youngest child is 38. What was I supposed to do for the last twenty years? Sit at home and knit? Having children is wonderful, it doesn't mean that is all we can or should do. I am as domestic as the next woman, but I would be bored silly staying home all day keeping house. I had a successful career and then started my own business, and my husband is 100% supportive.

  I do not feel that women are not equal to men, to the contrary, they have the superior position in life, more important to our arrival, survival, the beauty charm and warmth. why any lady would feel like a failed man, is not understandable to me.

  Superior position, lol, I remember the Watchtower spouting such nonsense, which is a just silly excuse to justify treating women as less than.

  I do not feel like a failed man, whatever the heck that means.

  
  

  
  
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  Luo bou to

  little Mary runs crying to her Mum cause little Johny is making fun of her cause she does not have a penis like he has Never mind says her mum when you grow up you can have as many of those as you want Conclusion PUSSY RULES
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  Doug Mason

  Take care when you say "the Bible is inspired". It might only represent what you wish for or what you believe God "should have" done.
  

  It is illogical to use any words from within the texts to attempt to show that the Bible is "inspired", That is pure circular reasoning.

  Further, the "Bible" did not exist until the 4th century at the earliest. Even then the decision was not and is not unanimously agreed on. Only the Catholic Church ever voted on the Canon (list of books), which it did in the 15th century. Protestants rely on Tradition.
  

  The contents too are disagreed on. Take for example the text of the NT, where arguments abound on whether the Textus Receptus or Westcott-Hort should be accepted (throw in Aland's Nestle text).

  The canons (list of books) of the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches differ - and there are other canons in use today. The Canons of the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) differs from the Catholic and Protestant versions. Add to that the differences in the texts between the Masoretic Text (MT) and the various iterations of the LXX plus that of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  I have listed above the writings that are widely accepted as not being written by Paul. The letters to the Corinthians are readily accepted as genuinely by him. 2 Corinthians (at least) is an edited compilation of several letters.

  Doug