Jesus, The Heart, And The Entry Level Spirit Thing...

by hillary_step 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello,

    I know that we have some who post to this board who have left the WTS and are now committed Christians, something it was difficult for them to be as Jehovah’s Witnesses!

    I have always been puzzled at the experiences of those who seem to pray and ask Jesus to enter their hearts and report a great event taking place. What exactly happened to you? How can you distinguish the external experience that you claim to have had from results of a self-induced emotional experience? Can it be explained in words and if not why not?

    I have in the past had moments when God personally spoke to me, that I happened to be close to a mountain peak, starved of oxygen and euphoric that I had survived yet another foolhardy attempt a icy suicide may have had something to do with it…lol, but I have never had a religious experience, even when I was religiously experienced.

    I feel it fair to put my cards on the table and admit that I am a little cynical at all this sort of stuff but I do not have a closed mind and am genuinely curious at this type of religious experience.

    Best regards - HS

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Good question.

    Either I'm missing out, some people actually have it happen, or some people for one reason or the other believe it happens.

    I've tried, I'd love to know where I'm going wrong!

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Hey hillay_step,I have never had that "religious experience". I do believe when you get an intuition,or that gut feeling as people like to call it, that is god talking to you..How many times have you heard someone say I wish I had listened to my instincts?..That recognition,of listening to my innerself,has saved my ass more than once...OUTLAW

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Excellent question, Hillary_Step. How do we pin down and define what I suspect is a right-brain experience? Yes, when I went down the aisle I was primed and ready to meet God. Actually, in my hyperactive spiritual state, I was ready for angels ascending and descending the heavenly staircase with trumpets and cymbals.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/36842/500241/post.ashx#500241

    The baptism was actually a let-down. No fireworks. No "special feeling". I do know I made a life changing decision on how I was going to conduct my life.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Sound's like you've experienced "mystic agnosticism". I'm jealous, lol. Not even salvia divinorum has made god chatty with me. There was the time the bible fell open to a scripture about... er,.... never mind.

    I think you'll enjoy the following, written by the brilliant author of "Kissing Hanks Ass".

    This is my answer to the occasionally asked question "How can you be so sure there is no God." This is not a parable. It's all true; in the normal, generally accepted sense of the word "true". There are a couple of patches of metaphor here and there, but these should be obvious from context. If you have doubts about which is which, feel free to write and ask for clarification.

    Since this occurred over the course of several years, nearly twenty years ago, a few mistakes are inevitable. Where the details have faded from my mind over the years (and I'm aware that they have faded) I've reconstructed them giving some indication that that's what I've done.

    I am well aware of how arrogant some of this will sound, but I see no way, in this case, to be accurate and modest at the same time. I'm also aware some of this won't sit well with my fellow Atheists, but that's why I call myself a Heretic.

    In my last year of junior high, or maybe my first of senior high, I went through a period of poor health. It wasn't life-threatening, or debilitating; just a period when my resistance was down and I was laid low for a week at a time by every single bug that was going around. As a consequence, I became intimately acquainted with daytime TV.

    One of the televangelists (Oral Roberts, I think) was doing some shtick with blessed oil from the Holy Lands. I had no interest in anointing anything, but I was collecting bottles at the time, and the one the oil came in looked pretty cool. He was giving the bottles away free, so I called the 800 number and gave them my address.

    As you might expect, the bottle turned out to be amazingly cheap plastic containing a couple of drops of imported olive oil. Among the business reply envelopes, cards containing suggested donation levels, and stories of little old ladies who had donated half their life savings then had it multiplied ten fold by the miracle of seed faith, was a small sheet of inspirational quotes from the Bible.

    My exposure to the Bible at that time was extremely limited. We owned a copy, but it was just another book on the shelf, sitting somewhere between Chariots of the Gods, and The Prophesies of Edgar Cayce. When I read those quotes, and thought about the promises they made, I experienced what, for lack of a better word, I might call a presence. It was pretty clear to me that ol' Rectal (as I like to call him) was not speaking for the Lord, so I decided to go directly to the source...the Bible. I even went so far as to ask for, and receive, a copy for my birthday, or graduation, or something.

    Even at that age I was an avid reader. It was common for me to read a hundred page paper-back in an afternoon. My reading was not limited to fiction. I usually read through my schoolbooks during the first month or so of class. I would check science books out of the library as often as science fiction. When I was in the mood for something light, I would open the encyclopedia to a random article, read it, then follow the "see also's" at the end to see where they would lead me. Sort of a primitive version of web surfing.

    I expected to read through the Bible in relatively short order. But it seemed obvious after just a few pages that "The Greatest Story Ever Told", or at least the King James Version, was the work of ignorant hacks, not an all powerful Creator. This will upset some of you, I know, but that's the way I felt. I knew that the Bible was actually a collection of works by different authors, so I skipped around trying to find the good parts. I never did. You know how sometimes there's a movie where the previews are great, but when you finally go to see it you find that every single good scene was in the previews, and the rest is junk? That's how I felt. But I also still felt that vague sense of presence from time to time.

    Not too much later, I was visited by Mormon missionaries. I was bored, curious, and little lonely, so I invited them in and listened to what the had to say. Again I felt that sense of presence. After our second meeting, they routinely started with a prayer. During these I would feel the sense of presence more acutely. But after a few visits, I started seeing through what they were saying. Their prophets weren't just liars, they were incompetent liars. The villains on Scooby-Doo did a better job of hiding their trickery than Joseph Smith! Once again the show didn't live up to the previews.

    I'm not sure if the Mormons sensed my growing skepticism, or if we had just gotten to certain point in their program. At our next meeting they asked me to lead the prayer, to ask Jesus to touch my soul and show me the truth. Many non-believers are reluctant to pray. It is said that Madalyn Murray O'Hair left instructions that her death was to be kept secret, so no one could pray for her. I've never understood this. Appealing to a force I didn't think existed wasn't a problem. At the same time, I felt honor bound to be sincere. It's a difficult mind set to explain, but it's a little like making a bet you don't think you can lose, but doing so fully prepared to pay-up if you do lose. I guess you could say I was 100% sure I was right, but also 10% sure I wasn't. I also allowed a 10% percent chance for diabolic influences (something else I'm 100% sure doesn't exist) and phrased my prayer to exclude them.

    Imagine my surprise when my prayer was answered! The presence I had felt before was there. But where before it had been standing to the side, waiting patiently, now it was filling me with a light the blind could see, a voice the deaf could hear, a love so strong I could feel it's weight fold around me like a blanket. I damn near became a Mormon then and there. But when we turned to our studies, the books were...empty. I don't know how else to explain it. It was just very obvious that there was nothing there I needed or wanted. Like a box of chocolate with all the candy eaten, it was just cardboard around empty paper, with just a trace of something sweet here and there.

    So there I was, converted by Mormons, but not to Mormonism...not to anything. The presence didn't take anything, didn't ask for anything, only gave. There didn't seem to be anything to do, but accept it and go on with my life. The Mormons gave up on me shortly after that, though I bet they baptized me while I wasn't looking.

    It's usually at this point in the story where the narrator's health miraculously improves. Nothing of the sort happened to me. My health did improve, but at a natural pace. In general, nothing much changed in my life except, perhaps, that I became more interested in philosophy and religion.

    A few months passed. I read about Buddhism and found it interesting enough to read further. I know many people claim that you can't really learn a religion from reading, but I've always been particularly adept at extracting knowledge from paper. A few koans, a little meditation, and zap satori. Feel free to disbelieve, feel free to fall back to the usual objection that enlightenment takes years to achieve. But I'll tell you a secret that everyone knows, enlightenment comes in an instant, it's the unlearning that takes years. I'm a quick unlearner, so it didn't take me long.

    So what's satori like? It's said that it can't be described. But neither can red be described to a blind man. But if the presence I described earlier sounds familiar, than you already know what satori is like. They look different from a distance, but that's just the cultural surroundings altering perceptions. It's the same as the way two identical red dots will seem to be of different shades when viewed against different backgrounds.

    Over the next few years I studied a number of other paths, including ceremonial magick, a couple of different flavors of Wicca, some more Eastern mysticism, and a couple of different types of Shamanism. I didn't delve very deeply into any of them, I didn't have to. The journey is never as long as those who profit from leading the expeditions would have us believe. Time and time again I found myself in the presence of...something.

    It got to the point where it was no longer a question whether a given path would lead to that place I had been so many times before, but just a matter of enjoying the scenery along the way, and the view of the destination from a different angle.

    It's been said (I wish I could remember by who) that Truth is like a shining mirror that's been shattered. Each philosopher, priest, and mage regards his small piece and thinks he sees the whole. I've come to see religions as something that men have built to hold their shards. In some cases these reliquaries make it easier to find the shard. More often their baroque ornamentation serves only to distract from, or even obscure, the small piece of Truth at the center.

    You may be wondering how I come to call such blatant mysticism by the names of Atheism and Materialism. Part of the answer lies how I've learned to look past the religion to the truth at it's core. Once I started doing that, I didn't have much use for gods, demons, magic circles, chants and incense. Once I reached that point, I realized that anything we try to say about that which is beyond our comprehension is so inadequate as to be insulting. And that leads to a kind of Atheism. I know that might not make much sense to some of you; hopefully you'll see what I mean as you read on.

    It might be true to say I have a personal relationship with the God, or that He is my Creator, or that He walked in the holy-land 2000 years ago, or that He wrote the Bible or died on the cross. It might also be true to say the Goddess stood behind me in a circle of chalk on nights of the full moon, or that the jewel is in the lotus, or ego alpha et omega.

    All these might be true, but they are also all gross and insulting trivializations. Worse than saying "Pavarotti has been known to sing in key". Worse than summarizing the life of Harry S. Truman, and the effects of the Truman administration by saying "Harry broke wind in the oval office."

    But this is only part of the why I now call myself an Atheist and a Materialist. The rest of the reason comes from my penultimate mystical experience. Here I'm using penultimate in the original sense of "second to last". The "shard" I was contemplating at the time was nominally Christian, but one of the flower-child varieties that didn't take the Old-Testament very seriously and advocated two-way conversations with God.

    I found a quiet place and put myself in the proper frame of mind. I reached out and invited God into my life. I felt what I took to be God's presence. I asked if I was speaking with God. I got the answer "Yes". I asked how I could know it was really God. I knew, in a way that those of you who haven't had a similar experience just can't understand. I asked if He was my Creator. I got the answer "Yes". I asked if the creation account in the Bible was correct. Have you ever heard God laugh? I did. It was a deep, good-natured laugh that made it clear that the Bible was not correct in this regard. I asked if evolution was correct. The answer was something like "It's closer" or "in part". I asked if he was a figment of my imagination, or part of my sub-conscious. The answer was "No". I asked if He existed. He said "No." Thinking I might know the answer to this paradox I asked if I should believe in him anyway. He said "No", not the answer I expected.

    You may think I'm joking, or mocking those who claim to talk with God, or trying to make a point but I'm being completely serious, and as genuine as I can be. I was there, in the presence of what was undeniably God being told by God that there was no God, and that I should not believe in Him.

    Have you ever dreamed you were dreaming? Have you ever dreamed you couldn't fall asleep? Pretty odd experiences, even compared to regular dreams, eh? The difference is nothing compared to the difference between being enlightened, and being enlightened while having a mystical experience. The Christian God was my personal Zen master. He delivered the ultimate koan in person.

    If Truth is like a shining mirror that's been shattered, then all the pieces I'd ever seen, and then some, were before me. The pieces were joined, the cracks sealed. The mirror was incomplete, and it held for only one brief moment. But when the moment was over, and the mirror again shattered, I knew I had seen clearly the whole of what the mirror of Truth normally reflects only in small parts.

    I knew I had been given a gift that few others had been given. I was glad and I was grateful, but I was also sad. I felt like a man blind since birth, who had been given the gift of sight, but blinded again a moment later. I knew that I would not see so much Truth so clearly assembled ever again. I spent some weeks savoring the bitter-sweetness of my experience, but in time it became just another part of my life, as even the most exotic events will.

    Time passed. One day I happened to glance into a real, physical mirror that one of my sisters had left on a coffee table. It was leaning against some bit of clutter, and it was angled oddly. Reflected in that mirror was something so extremely odd and terribly exotic that I flat-out could not wrap my mind around it. After a few moments of trying to puzzle it out I did the natural thing, and looked around to see what was being reflected.

    I wish I could remember what it was. I suppose I could make something up to illustrate my point, something that would tie up the narrative nicely; but I'd rather be as honest as possible. Whatever it was it was so completely mundane that I've completely forgotten what it was. At that moment I felt the presence that I had felt so many times before, and I began my very last mystic experience, which continues to this day.

    And that, ultimately, is why I'm an Atheist, and a Materialist.

  • LyinEyes
    LyinEyes

    Leaving JW's was such a tramatic thing for me, I cried like a baby, even worse I sobbed, until I was sick. I prayed to Jehovah to help me. I felt nothing wonderful take place. Later on I got on my hands and knees prayed directly to Jesus and said what everyone said to do, tell him you accept him as your Savior . I felt nothing but exhaution from my tears, no moving experience, no.. I think he heard me, nothing really.

    I am still fighting to believe in God,,,,,I really want to be a believer , but sometimes my mind tells me that it just doesnt make sense. I go back and forth with this everyday, wondering , thinking, reading scriptures trying to see if I fall on one side of the fence or the other. So far , still nothing.

    I have only been out of JW's for a year, so maybe this takes time. I do feel better than I did a year ago. I don't feel I am going to die a death sentence directly from God because of my life choices. I have accepted I will die thou. I do feel more peace than I did, and I can say that whatever faith I do have, even thou very tiny, will not die.

    So maybe for me,,, instead of getting what you describe as that wonderful overwhelming feeling of something miraculous happening to me all at once,,,,,maybe I am feeling it in tiny little bits at a time. Maybe in my case it is not meant to happen as one glorious event. I can understand why, I think, because I don't fully trust myself yet. If I had one of those experiences I might wonder my own sanity. I think many years from now , if I do find that secure place with God, it will a strong faith , it will be thru years of getting to know God again and myself.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    LyinEyes, I think you are on to something. That is really profound. I say there is no harm in the search, and the journey is at least as fun as the destination.

  • Sara Annie
    Sara Annie

    SixofNine:

    I really enjoyed reading that essay you posted.

    Thanks.

  • waiting
    waiting

    There is a teaching in psychology that one can talk to their "inner self" for a calming, even better understanding of one's self - or of events.

    For instance, if you wish your mind to think about something in particular during the night, then quietly - before sleeping - speak to yourself about it. Lay it all out, the possibilities, the problems, the quest. Ask yourself for help in solving or remembering.

    Amazing enough, a good portion of time - this works.

    Now, replace "yourself" with "God".........and amazing enough, a good portion of time - this works.

    Who's to say? But I stopped talking to myself this way when a JW. It was freakishly like my praying to God. With about the same success ratio.

    No, I've never felt God's presence. But I've felt his absence many times. Who's to say if he was really absent....or just never there in the first place? dunno.

    waiting

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Some of my experiences, which i thought related to god are as follows.

    Reading ray franz' first book, i realised the wt is false. I felt nauseous. The following day, i got over the nausia and started to feel very light, very happy, almost levitating. This feeling lasted for several months, gradually tapering off. I thought i was anointed. However, some time ago, i concluded that i was likely just getting a buzz from new found freedom.

    After leaving the wt, i attended various churches, mostly pentacostal types. During a group singing session, where some talent was evident, somehow the wonderful sounds hitting me from all directions affected me. I suddenly broke down. I ran to the bathroom and balled my head off for about 15 minutes. I puzzled about this experience for some time. I had similar, though not as intense reactions to moving recorded music. I finally concluded that in that peaceful happy environment, the music was triggering a cathatic release of grief and pain which i had suppressed during my entire life.

    I often lined up w others to recieve blessing/prayer at the ends of church services. Most people would fall over backwards during these ministrations. I never did. I think a lot of them were faking. One speaker we had was a rather low key. While waiting for him to get to me, i slowly chanted 'god' over and over. He didn't touch me, but he blew on my stomach. The second time he did that, i felt like i had been electrocuted. I felt a spit second of pain all over, then i fell down, total peace. I lay there for about 10 minutes, euphoric.

    I got the idea of trying something similar, only w the help of marajuana, at home. It had been almost 30 yrs since i had quit this drug. I sat on my bed and got high. I started chanting 'god', focussing upward, where god is supposed to be. Suddenly a felt a wave of rage. I saw what could be described as a giant black tadpole, about four feet long. It had red eyes and sharp triangular teeth. It was cruising in the air, about 15 feet away. My chanting caught it's attention, and it turned toward me. I thought, that's not god. I mentally backed away from it. I remembered that the pentles said that god dwells in the solar plexis area. So i focussed there and continued chanting.

    A bright golden light appeared. I saw a beaming golden bieng about 4 feet tall. He was extremely happy, beaming a smile up at me. He was extremely happy to see me, very pleased w me. The quality of his love and approval is hard to describe. It was totally unconditional.

    While many will say, it's the drug, it's the drug, i say that it appeared as real as anything else in my life, only i did not see it w my eyes. I saw all of this somehow, very clearly, sharply outlined in intense color in my solar plexis. It was never repeated.

    After several years of believing that i had seen god, it gradually dawned on me, that his facial features, his smile was a lot like my brother's who i was close to. He had died thirty yrs ago. But, i'm not sure.

    Another time, i thought i saw jesus. It was sunday evening, at what they called the holy ghost meeting. Mostly black, this was made up of group singing, group speaking in tongues, group praising/worshipping jesus. I got there late. Being depressed, i almost didn't go. I said to jesus, jesus, i don't feel like doing this. To the right side of the paster, if the wall was pushed back twenty feet, was a figure, sitting on a chair. It was all grey. He got up off his chair and made like he was offering it to me, to sit on. I enterpreted this as jesus offering me his throne. What is of more value than that, i thought. I started laughing, then dancing. Within minutes most people in the church were doing the same. This must have gone on for 20 minutes. At that point, the pastor attempted to call us to order, as he wanted the praising to stop so that he could present some diplomas to new members who had taken the appropriate classes. We didn't stop. This included his wife, who was standing beside him while he was doing the honors. His wife continued laughing her head off, and he barely was able to give out the papers. All order was lost.

    This is the first time i have shared these here. Make what you will of these stories, i recount them as they happened. I don't believe in much of the bible anymore, however, if jesus is around, he can visit me, anytime. I have absolutely no fear of offending, in any way or form, 'god' or jesus, whatever or wherever they may be.

    SS

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit