The Good News Is: The Great-Crowd-Of-Other-Sheep Do Not Exist

by Sea Breeze 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Rattigan350

  "There is no 2nd class according to scripture. Ephesians 4:4 mentions only 1 hope."

  There are 144,000 spiritual Israelites that fulfill Jehovah's promise to Israel about Israel becoming kings and priests. Revelation is clear on that they serve in heaven with Jesus.

  There were billions that died before Jesus died and could not be anointed with holy spirit. Their hope is to be resurrect to life on earth

  Then there are the many billions who died after Jesus but were never anointed with holy spirit. They are no different than the ones who died before he did. They are dead and in the grave waiting for the resurrection to life on earth.

  Then there are the ones who don't die at all. They are the ones that John sees in Rev 7:14 as a great crowd of people who come out of the great tribulation.
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  BoogerMan

  "Spiritual Israelites" 😀😀😀😀😀

  The cult's perverted wording of Scriptures is deeply ingrained: Galatians 6:16 - "...the Israel of God."

  
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Rattigan

  "There is no 2nd class according to scripture. Ephesians 4:4 mentions only 1 hope."
  

  Yes, and there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born of and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jn.3:3; Ro.8:9 Neither is there any Christian who cannot call God his Father or who is not justified by the blood of Christ. I Jn.5:1; Acts 13:39

  144,000 is symbolic for the innumerable church of God. John hears the perfect number, Isreal squared and multiplied by 1000 meaning many and then turns to see the actual group in a heavenly setting of victory and celebration. This hearing and then seeing sequence is commonly used by John when displaying his symbols in Revelation. Eg. He hears the lion and turns and sees the Lamb.

  It is never wise to base essential doctrine on Revelation or apocalyptic literature.
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  Rattigan350

  Spiritual Israelites are the Israel of God. Same thing.

  "Yes, and there is no such thing as a Christian who is not born of and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jn.3:3; Ro.8:9 Neither is there any Christian who cannot call God his Father or who is not justified by the blood of Christ. I Jn.5:1; Acts 13:39"
  
  There are millions of Christians who have not been anointed with holy spirit. Anointed, not born of and indwelt by the holy spirit.
  
  As for Romans 8:9 "you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you."
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  Beth Sarim

  The Borg takes part of the Revelation scriptures as literal,,,then a few sentences later its symbolic.

  Confusing? No??
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Rattigan

  "There are millions of Christians who have not been anointed with holy spirit. Anointed, not born of and indwelt by the holy spirit."

  Then they are simply professed Christians trying to serve God in the flesh as all religionists do. There are no exceptions. Jn.3:3

  As for Romans 8:9 "you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you."

  Let’s not take the verse out of context.

  8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9¶But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

  
  

  Do you have the indwelling Holy Spirit Rattigan?

  
  

  10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you....

  14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

  
  

  Are you are indwelt by and led by the Spirit of God? If so, this follows

  
  

  15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

  16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

  17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

  
  

  So, have you received the Spirit of adoption; are you a child of God and a joint heir with Christ Rattigan?

  
  

  If not, you do not belong to Christ and you are merely serving in your flesh and in your own strength as all non-Christians and professed Christians do.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Here is one of the WT other sheep after finding himself in heaven.

  https://youtube.com/shorts/pruDzAJ6RVg?si=KAkJjJ-mF7bpWje9
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  Sea Breeze

  Vidquin,

  The Kingdom of God exists in its mystery form during the church age. (Do a good study on the Kingdom parables.) In other words, God dwells inside of believers (in the temple of their hearts) and is not readily discernable. Here he writes his laws on believer's hearts instead of tablets of stone. This is a great relief to believers NOW, since both Sin and the Law are burdens to everyone, believers and unbelievers alike.

  This happens when the old spirit of man is sliced off and replaced with a new spirit, one that is sinless. (The circumcision of the heart/spirit) This is how God then resides and fellowships directly with the believer, in this life.

  "The hour is coming when we must worship God in spirit and truth" - Jesus

  So, believers have a dual nature to contend with. Even with the internal conflicts this presents, the POWER of sin is broken (not eliminated) and is a huge improvement over when we were "dead in our trespasses".

  When the believer is glorified with a sinless body, then the transformation will be complete and the sin nature is 100% eliminated from our being. Only then can the believer enter into the presence of God, body, soul, and spirit.

  Both premillennialist and amillennialist agree on this. Where they disagree is whether or not the 1K yr. reign is literal or figurative. This is not a salvation issue.
  
  However, until Augustine the early church leaders nearly all believed in a literal 1k rule of Jesus on earth for 1000 years in a literal rebuilt earthly temple in Jerusalem. Many bible prophecies require this to be in place before the coming of the Lord.
  
  So, to recap: The temple of God is:
  
  1. The hearts of born-again believers (Now)

  2. In heaven (Now) - Isiah 6: 1-4

  3. In Jerusalem (in a future rebuilt temple ) debatable among Christians today but supported by early church leaders.
  
  
  @Rattigan
  
  

  "There are millions of Christians who have not been anointed with holy spirit. Anointed, not born of and indwelt by the holy spirit."

  I agree with VH7. If a person is not born again with Jesus himself living in their heart, they do not belong to Christ and are a self-deluded "weed" growing alongside the tares.

  Romans 8:9 - "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him"

  Col. 1:27 - "to whom God willed to make known what the wealth of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles is, the mystery that is Christ in you, the hope of glory".
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• 

  Vidqun

  Sea Breeze, first thing, there is no temple in heaven: "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:22, 23 ESV)

  Second point, there is not going to be a literal third (stone and mortar) temple on earth either. The following scriptures indicate the meaning of the earthly temple. If you understand this, many things will start making sense:

  Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. (1 Cor. 3:16, 17 ESV)

  What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Cor. 6:16 ESV)

  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph. 2:19-22 ESV)

  So what is the new focus for Christians, since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." (Heb. 12:22-24 ESV)

  Third point, there is no Pre-tribulation rapture:

  29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
  30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)
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  Sea Breeze

  @Vidqun,

  Perhaps you meant: (there will be) "no temple in heaven" ? I could agree with that in the eternal state, after the 1k rule.
  
  But, it is clearly there now:

  Is. 6: 1-4 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train[a] of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:

  “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
  the whole earth is full of his glory!”[b]

  4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the [temple] house was filled with smoke.

  Second point, there is not going to be a literal third (stone and mortar) temple on earth either.

  Here is a fair handed discussion of the Temple Ezekiel saw during the 1K reign. It gives fair treatment to both the literal and figurative views Christians have.

  Third point, there is no Pre-tribulation rapture:

  I believe it is more likely than not. Believers will be "saved from wrath".

  Romans 5: 9 being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

  This is a fair handed discussion on this topic as well.