Nisan 14 or not?

by LostintheFog1999 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  TD

  ...would someone explain to me why the Jehovah's witness community are holding their "lord's evening meal" on Tuesday 4th April; when the Jewish community are not holding their 2023 passover until the 5th April 2023?

  JW's share the fundy belief that Christ as the "Lamb" had to die on the exact same day as the Passover lamb. Everything therefore must be crammed into a 24 hour period

  On the 13th of Nisan, (By JW reckoning) JW's hurry home from work, get ready, and go to their Memorial. Although the preliminaries can begin before sundown, the actual passing of the emblems always occurs after sundown, when the 14th has technically just begun. The next day, when they wake up, it will still be the 14th and the 15th will not begin until the next sundown, nearly 24 hours after the JW celebration.
  

  Numbers 33:3 very plainly states that the next daylight period after Passover was the 15th, not the 14th, so the JW's are a full 24 hours early in their observance.
  
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  Phizzy

  " so the JW's are a full 24 hours early in their observance."

  I pointed this out to a JW lady I knew well many years ago, she was one who insisted the Org. was right about everything.

  When I had proved your point to her, she flounced off, throwing over her shoulder the comment "I don't care if we celebrate it on the wrong day", !!???

  But I guess that will be the attitude of J.W's today, sadly, they really do not care about Truth, which is ironic in the extreme, the way they bandy that word around.
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  Fisherman

  Numbers 33:3 very plainly states that the next daylight period after Passover was the 15th, not the 14th, so the JW's are a full 24 hours early in their observance.

  
  

  Insight Book Volume 2 Page 580, par 3

  
  

  “Since the Jews reckoned the day as starting after sundown and ending the next day at sundown, Nisan 14 would begin after sundown. It would be in the evening after Nisan 13 concluded that the Passover would be observed. Since the Bible definitely states that Christ is the Passover sacrifice (1Co 5:7) and that he observed the Passover meal the evening before he was put to death, the date of his death would be Nisan 14, not Nisan 15…”

  
  
• 

  TD

  I've read that quote a time or two and thought (perhaps mistakenly) that I did a reasonably accurate job of representing it above.
  

  It is directly contradicted by Numbers 33:3.
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  Fisherman

  ...and that quote is directly contradicted by Numbers 33:3

  How?
  
  
• 

  TD

  When JW's wake up the next morning after their Memorial, it is still the 14th of Nisan (By their reckoning)
  

  The 15th won't begin until the next evening, nearly 24 hours after JW's have celebrated their Memorial and the daylight period of the 15th mentioned at Numbers 33:3 won't begin until the morning after that, which is nearly 36 hours after the JW celebration.
• 

  Fisherman

  daylight period of the 15th mentioned at Numbers 33:3

  As JW see it, daylight and day are 2 different things since day begins at sundown when it is dark and the next day begins, so the day of Nisan 14 begins at sundown Nisan 13. Therefore, Numbers 33:3 does not refer to the following morning daylight after Passover(as JW believe). Im sure you understand JW reasons although you disagree.
• 

  TD

  Therefore, Numbers 33:3 does not refer to the following morning daylight after Passover

  I think you're off your stride here, my friend.

  First: That idea is contradicted by JW literature itself. The opening sentence from the Insight article you quoted above plainly states,

  "Passover (Heb., peʹsach; Gr., paʹskha) was instituted the evening preceding the Exodus from Egypt." (Emphasis mine)

  This is not the only such statement in JW literature either...
  

  Second: That we are talking about the daylight period of the 15th is necessary, given the context of a triumphal procession in full view of the Egyptians.

  Some translations explicitly use the words "morning" and "morrow" and others, like the NWT emphasis the back-to-back linearity with phrases like, "Directly the day after the Passover" and "The very day after the Passover"

  Third: Injecting an additional 24 to 36 hours into the story doesn't fit the symbolism. The Insight article goes on to comment:

  "The partakers ate in a standing position, their hips girded, staff in hand, sandals on so as to be ready for a long journey over rough ground."

  This observation is nonsensical when we have the Israelites milling around, doing who knows what, for the entire daylight period of the 14th and the entire nighttime period of the 15th.
  
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  Fisherman

  Numbers 33:1-5

  “But Rameses may here refer to a district, and it may be that the Israelites pulled away from all parts of the district, converging on Succoth as the place of rendezvous. Numbers 33:3-5”

  “This would allow for Moses to have been at Pharaoh’s palace on the night of the tenth plague and, before the next day’s end, to begin leading the people of Israel on their march out of Egypt.” Insight Book p723 Volume 2

  According to WT literature, again TD, Passover meal is on Nisan 13 sundown when Nisan14 begins and not Nisan 14 sundown when Passover day ends. Therefore, Nisan 13 evening was the day of the last supper on Thursday evening (but in the Jewish calendar it was Friday Nisan 14 “AM” the beginning of Passover day) The last supper couldn’t be on Friday night because Jesus was killed on Friday Nisan 14 33CE around 3PM, the day of Preparation for the Sabbath which was on Nisan 15. So, the evidence points to Jews-at least Jesus and his Apostles-celebrating the passover back in 33 same day JW do nowadays before Rabbinical Javneh post 2nd Temple Rabbinical Judaism “saved from the coffin.” —Anyway, that’s JW“stride” at this time as I read the literature.
• 

  Fisherman

  TD,

  What I conclude( and I could be wrong) when reading wt literature compared to Nu 33:3 is that the Jews began to leave Egypt on Passover day Nisan 14 —that’s why it’s called Passover—but they left in stages as verses 1-5 show. Although they departed from Ramses on Nisan 15 later on, the Passover already began on Passover day after Passover (the meal on the evening prior). WT commentary also notes that there is dispute between Jewish groups such as Caraites and Rabbinical and the Samaritans whether or not Passover meal is on the beginning or end of Nisan 14 and cites Ibn Ezra supporting Nisan 14 beginning. But the fact that Jesus celebrated the passover at the beginning of the day of Nisan 14 validates to JW that it is not on Nisan 14 end with Nisan 15 the following daylight morning as you imply is when the Exodus began.