Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

TerryWalstrom

Of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things. We hear about them,
look into them and laugh.
However, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.
Watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ&t=268s

TerryWalstrom

Another view:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar's_Messiah?fbclid=IwAR1jTfvcN69SjeQE6cn0IiqWRTKmHtj_Svgvpg20HioSzaLyaFYi1PGDXeA

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Wiki:
"Caesar’s Messiah is a 2005 book by Joseph Atwill, which argues that the New Testament Gospels were written as wartime propaganda by scholars connected to the Roman imperial court of the Flavian emperors: Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian. According to Atwill, their primary purpose in creating the religion was to control the spread of Judaism and moderate its political virulence. The Jewish nationalist Zealots had been defeated in the First Jewish–Roman War of 70 AD, but Judaism remained an influential movement throughout the Mediterranean region. Atwill argues that the biblical character Jesus Christ is a typological representation of the Roman Emperor Titus.

Atwill's theory contradicts the mainstream historical view,[1] which is that while the Gospels include many mythical or legendary elements, these are religious elaborations added to the biography of a historical Jesus who did live in 1st-century Roman Palestine (Judea),[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[9][10][11]

cofty

Before I invest time watching the video, in what way is this not just another crazy conspiracy theory?

TerryWalstrom

Question: Before I invest time watching the video, in what way is this not just another crazy conspiracy theory?

Reply: I'd say it comes down to Occam's Razor. It's a simpler explanation for Jesus Christ which matches the known facts.

cofty

The simplest explanation is that the stories are loosely based on an actual 1st century Rabbi. Gospel writers like Matthew spun his biography to show he was the promised Messiah so we have lots of OT parallels written after the fact.

Crazyguy

The guy that wrote that book had to do some crazy jumping through hoops to make his ideas work. Look up the meaning of Catholic, I think they took ideas from many religions i the empire to finally come up with the Bible then it was changed and changed again. They took ideas from the Osiris cult, Dyonisus cult, Persian religion , the worship of the Cesar etc to come up with Christianity. Also before the Romans the Greeks were trying to stamp out the Jewish religion ie and they put together the Septuagint.

The Bible is a Greek and Roman invention and the writings came from all over the Levant and were changed to reflect the new god they worshipped. The Greeks for example had no problem keeping the word El in the Hebrew Scriptures because to them it represented Zeus and when they conguered Egypt they had no problem with the worship of Amon because they also saw him as Zeus. Same with Osiris he was Dyonisus to them.

knowsnothing1

Bart Ehrman disagrees. Jesus was a real, 1st century Jew that was known as a Rabbi, miracle worker, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

His disciples went to their deaths because they held firm to the resurrection of Jesus, having seen them with their own eyes. The movement was first persecuted by the Jews, later by the Romans.

If it was a Roman invention, it was a poor one. It outcompeted and was rival to the state sponsored emperor/local pagan worship of the time.

You also have Pliny on the "Christian Problem" to Emperor Trajan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

TerryWalstrom

It's fascinating how everybody draws water from the same well over and over and it tastes different every time :)

Eisegesis

john.prestor

"His disciples went to their deaths because they held firm to the resurrection of Jesus, having seen them with their own eyes."

Nope. They didn't. The only apostles who New Testament authors claim died as martyrs were Peter (obliquely referred to at the end of the Gospel of John) and James the son of Zebedee (in the Acts of the Apostles, which originally also claimed his brother John died with him, according to the Catholic theologian Alfred Loisy).

Any other references to the martyrdom of apostles or disciples comes from late 2nd and early 3rd century "Acts of (John, Thomas, Peter, Matthew, etc.)" literature, which contain little more than pious legend. Have you read any of them, knowsnothing1?

TerryWalstrom

And the debunking video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MH5Gt797vc

Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

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