JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Anony Mous

  No, those “facts” take the resurrection as a fact and then come up with those articles to support it. However, no scientific evidence of either Jesus and especially not of anyone ever having been resurrected has been brought.

  What you define as a fact and scholarship is faith, and complete different than what the scientific method requires for proof, facts and evidence. It is not faith, I have it on good authority that resurrection is not a regular thing, however during the time the resurrection is written about, it had become so banal not even the Romans wrote about it?

  You’d think a city full of zombies, the story of Lazarus, the story of the girl Paul resurrected, the story of Jesus; you’d think someone else would’ve noticed all these people kept coming back, and if it were that common that nobody noticed at least tax and death records would indicate this was a common occurrence.

  But it seems only Christians noticed a few decades after Jesus had already died and even they can’t agree on the specifics. You said it’s a different part of a story, which is possible if they all had different sections of the story but that doesn’t explain the blatant contradictions in all the stories or even the completely different order of events depending on the target audience.

  Simply said, if you take away the Christian sources on the subject, what is the story on Jesus you are left with? There is no Jesus in any contemporary record, Christians are mentioned as a sect from the Jews, Pontius Pilate is a footnote at best. Resurrection doesn’t even come up, there are no graves we can visit, you’d think, given the importance of the event to their faith, that is the first thing early Christians would remember to properly identify, geographically pinpoint and later on secure as evidence. This is what the Muslims did, they have an important stone, they have to make a pilgrimage at least once in their life, they always seem to know where it is anywhere on earth they are. Same for the Jews, they only have one wall left, but they know where it is, they try to make pilgrimages to it.
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  Sea Breeze

  Simply said, if you take away the Christian sources on the subject, what is the story on Jesus you are left with? There is no Jesus in any contemporary record, Christians are mentioned as a sect from the Jews, Pontius Pilate is a footnote at best.

  What you don't seem to understand is that the most prominent agnostic-atheist-skeptic scholars use parts of the NT as literal history. Why are atheist scholars allowed to do this, but not anyone else? Doesn't make sense, and thinking people don't buy that restriction. These skeptic scholars may not use it as a believer does sitting in church on a Sunday morning. But, they do allow 7 or 8 books of the NT as legitimate historical sources., where the writer is corroborated and where he was at the right place at the right time to know what was going on.
  
  Using only these sources, the 12 facts of Jesus Resurrection are agreed upon as literal history by the majority of skeptic scholars who publish in this area. And, as such cannot be dismissed by thinking people.
  

  Here are an additional couple dozen sources or so surrounding the historicity of Jesus from extra biblical sources.
  
  We know from history that tens of thousands of orthodox Jews, (right in the heart of Jerusalem where their claims could be easily refuted if not true), made the Resurrection their central message, abandoned Saturday as their holy day, and accepted Sunday (the day of the Resurrection) as their new holy day. Jews don't change even over millennia. But, they did.
  
  They did this at great personal expense - shunned forever from family and friends, and worse. Can you provide a plausible explanation for this fact of history other than the Resurrection? Why would people just up and submit to the harshest abuse possible unless the Resurrection is true?
  
  What say you?
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  truth_b_known

  Dr. Gary Habermas goes in to the PhD committee at Michigan State and is told by the committee chair he can do his dissertation on the resurrection of Jesus, but cannot use the Bible to do so. Habermas uses the Bible to prove the resurrection and is awarded his PhD.

  The "Minimal Facts" approach isn't a method designed to find the truth, it's a method designed to bolster confidence in the proposed (read: preferred) explanation. - Matt Dillahunty

  Regardless of the level of proof that a tomb was found empty, the answer cannot be "It was supernatural powers," until supernatural powers are proven first.

  Minimal Facts Approach is based on the following process -

  • Insert reasonable premises with minimal facts/minimal data
  • Premises are agreed with by believer and skeptics (whether or not true)
  • Skeptic is now bound to accept conclusion or be declared irrational

  It is not that there are only minimal facts/minimal data. It is this method scales way down the facts/data to just the bare minimum of what both believers and skeptics could agree on in the scholarly realm. These minimal facts are not the only facts. Therefor, this violates the scientific method of validating facts.

  Habermas and his co-workers have picked their 12 minimal facts. They then took a list of skeptical scholars and found out that approximately 75% of those scholars seem to agree with those 12 minimal facts. So, what about the other 25%? This is done to write off the 25% to instill certainty in the minimal facts instead of getting to 1 explanation (the truth) that includes all the facts. We do not even know if the same 75% of skeptical scholars agree on the same 12 minimal facts.

  12 Minimal Facts of Jesus Resurrection

  1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
  2. He was buried.
  3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
  4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
  5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
  6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
  7. The resurrection was the central message.
  8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
  9. The Church was born and grew.
  10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
  11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
  12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

  With the exception of #9 and #10, all other minimal facts come from the Bible.

  Let's look at minimal fact # 1 -

  Jesus died by crucifixion.

  Most scholars, skeptical or otherwise, would agree that the Bible does tell a story and in that story Jesus dies by crucifixion. Not all scholars believe there was even a historical Jesus. There are many theories which are supported by facts. Jesus' execution at the hands of Romans is a story that originates with Christians and writers of the Bible. This story must be proven as fact before Habermas' first minimal fact can even be addressed.

  Some theorize Jesus did not die. One theory is Jesus had a Near Death Experience (NDE) and then went off to hide to heal. After healing Jesus came back to his disciples. It is a plausible theory because even today we have persons who technically die, but are resuscitated. We do not have any experiences of people be resurrected 3 days after dying and their corpse disappearing from their tomb.

  We have a major issue with minimal facts 1-8, 11-12. They all come from the Bible. The Bible is a disingenuous book. "Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed" - John 20:29. That seems to be different than doubt and verify through examination of all facts and data.

  Minimal facts #9 & #10 are historical. However, they are not proof of the story. They are only proof that people believed a story. We can say the same about just any major religion in the world. Is the Quran correct? Islam is the fastest growing religion. Muslims adopted the Hijri calendar which is based on Muslim holidays and rituals. Does that mean Islam is the one, true religion or does it mean the nations conquered by the Muslims use the Hijri calendar the same way that nations conquered by Rome were forced to use a calendar based on the Jesus story?

  "Do not believe in what you have heard; do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations; do not believe in anything because it is rumored and spoken by many; do not believe merely because a written statement of some old sage is produced; do not believe in conjectures; do not believe in that as truth to which you have become attached from habit; do not believe merely the authority of your teachers and elders. After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and gain of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - Siddhartha Gautama (first Buddha),
  
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  Sea Breeze

  Habermas states that 6 of the 12 minimum facts are agreed upon by 75% of scholars who publish in this area and over 90% agree to the other 6. I'm not sure which 6 is which.

  There aren't any peer reviewed papers that refute his analysis that I'm aware of.
  
  So, the whole city saw Jesus die. The Pharisees and Pilate were WELL motivated to find that body because of the threat it represented to both power structures. I'm sure every effort was spent. They never found the body. The eyewitnesses say it was because he was alive and even had a 40 day ministry thereafter.
  
  

  Matthew records that some Jews claimed the body was stolen. The Nazareth Inscription is probably the Roman response to the same disappearance.

  Truth Be Known: I'll ask you the same question:

  We know from history that tens of thousands of orthodox Jews, (right in the heart of Jerusalem where their claims could be easily refuted if not true), made the Resurrection their central message, abandoned Saturday as their holy day, and accepted Sunday (the day of the Resurrection) as their new holy day. Jews don't change even over millennia. But, they did.
  
  They did this at great personal expense - shunned forever from family and friends, and worse. Can you provide a plausible explanation for this fact of history other than the Resurrection? Why would people just up and submit to the harshest abuse possible for something they knew to be false?

  
  What say you?
  
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  pistolpete

  truth_b_known

  Regardless of the level of proof that a tomb was found empty, the answer cannot be "It was supernatural powers," until supernatural powers are proven first.

  This is really the basic, central, or critical point of proving ANYTHING related to the "Story" of Jesus.

  The Central Feature is not really about Jesus or his resurrection, but instead it's about a Supreme Being, aka Jehovah who intervene by resurrecting a man named Jesus, and by this means is going to save every single human who has ever lived on the planet, approx 100 billion people have lived and died on the planet earth.

  If he plans to have them resurrected to heaven, then we have to ask why? Why not create them in heaven in the first place.

  If resurrected on earth, why did some All Knowing, all Powerful, God of love tolerate so much suffering and pain on billions of innocent children, mothers, fathers and even the trillions of innocent animals------FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS and continuing.
  

  This is not a "Picture" of an All Knowing, All Powerful God of Love.

  It is a picture of man made stories to quell the reality of death in the absence of a Loving and just Supreme Being.

  An All Powerful God with Supernatural Powers HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN.

  On the other hand there are MANY Unproven stories of many Powerful Gods like Zeus, God of the sky, lightning, thunder, law, order, justice, King of the Gods and the “Father of Gods and men”. and so many others with different supernatural powers like Atlas, Chaos, Eros, Pan, etc.
  

  The idea of a sacrifice needed to appease Some powerful deity was a common belief of ancient people.

  Jehovah was just another deity that required the sacrifice of animals and humans to appease him. He loved the smell of blood.
  

  But thankfully, we are slowly coming out of such ignorance.I think in another few hundreds years, humankind will grow out of it.

  Genesis 8

  And Noah built an altar to the Lord and took of every clean [four-footed] animal and of every clean fowl or bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

  21 When the Lord smelled the PLEASING ODOR [a scent of satisfaction to His heart],
  

  ERVThe Lord smelled these sacrifices, AND IT PLEASED HIM
  

  And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord and said, If You will indeed give the Ammonites into my hand, Then whatever or whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites, it shall be the Lord’s, and I will offer it or him up as a burnt offering. ...Then Jephthah came to Mizpah to his home, and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances! And she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

  35 And when he saw her, he rent his clothes and said, Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you are the cause of great trouble to me; for I have opened my mouth [in a vow] to the Lord, and I cannot take it back.....At the end of two months she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed
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  Sea Breeze

  "Regardless of the level of proof that a tomb was found empty, the answer cannot be "It was supernatural powers," until supernatural powers are proven first."
  

  This is really the basic, central, or critical point of proving ANYTHING related to the "Story" of Jesus.

  Pistol Pete:
  
  So, It sounds like you are saying that super natural powers cannot be accepted until supernatural powers are proven. Right?

  And, it cannot be proven because there is no evidence for supernatural powers, except of course for all the evidence FOR supernatural powers like eye-witness testimony, empty tomb and the other minimum facts I listed.
  
  Oh, OK.

  Why not just try to provide a logical, natural, explanation for the minimum facts that scholars agree upon? Otherwise, these kinds of circular reasoning statements are just "hand waving".

  Pretty lame reasoning.
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  truth_b_known

  We know from history that tens of thousands of orthodox Jews, (right in the heart of Jerusalem where their claims could be easily refuted if not true), made the Resurrection their central message, abandoned Saturday as their holy day, and accepted Sunday (the day of the Resurrection) as their new holy day.

  Know is a strong word.

  Why would people just up and submit to the harshest abuse possible unless for something they knew to be false?

  Why would people (i.e. "tens of thousands of orthodox Jews") convert to Christianity, submitting themselves to harsh abuse, for something they knew to be false (i.e. the story of Jesus death and resurrection)?

  Before we answer the question we must be aware that the "tens of thousands" of Jewish converts in Jerusalem in the first century CE is a number purported once again by the Bible. Not all scholars accept this number. Some believe the number of converts in the Bible is highly exaggerated.

  Some scholars (see: Hopkins, K 1998. Christian number and its implications. Journal of Early Christian Studies 6, 185-226) postulate that the Jewish converts in Jerusalem never abandoned their faith in Judaism, Jewish tradition, Jewish worship, or believed the Torah no longer had to be followed. In addition, scholars also have concluded that the number of Jews in Jerusalem in the first century CE never exceeded approximately 1,000 people.

  Rather, there seemed to be 2 churches in the first century CE: the Jews in Jerusalem and the Hellenistic non-Jews whom Paul converted. The Hellenistic Christians quickly abandoned Jewish scripture and practices. This caused conflict between the 2 groups.

  What information do we have about the first century CE Roman Empire? The Roman cultural was heavily influenced by its predecessors, the Greeks. Greek religion influenced Roman religion. Both had polytheistic religions with humanized gods (The gods had physical bodies and would often visit humans on Earth). Polytheistic religions tend to be accepting of other religions and gods.

  What seems more plausible?

  1. There were tens of thousands of Jews in Jerusalem who accepted Jesus as the messiah (the Biblical Jesus did not fulfil all the prophecies of the messiah in the Torah), accepted that Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected himself, rejected the Torah and Jewish religion to worship on Sunday or

  2. There were thousands of non-Jewish converts to Paul's ministry who were never Jews, were raised in a culture/religion that freely accepted other religions (even an altar to an unknown god), other gods, gods who frequently took human form to interact with other humans, and were even killed only to be resurrected (see: Asclepius Greek god of Medicine who Zeus feared would make man immortal only to be resurrected to Olympus).
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  Anony Mous

  Using only these sources, the 12 facts of Jesus Resurrection are agreed upon as literal history by the majority of skeptic scholars who publish in this area. And, as such cannot be dismissed by thinking people.

  That is a very strong claim. I think you mean theologians, not archeologist. Big difference between the philosophy of Christianity, which include the requirement to accept those 'facts' but they aren't facts in the sense that they are true things that happened.

  You're talking and quoting theologians, not scientists.

  Even so, you cannot dismiss that the stories of the Passion and Resurrection are completely different and occasionally conflict in the 4 canonized books and even more different in the apocrypha, Muslim and contemporary Jewish theology, including the link you pointed at showed that according to the Jews, Jesus was hanged.
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  pistolpete

  Sea Breeze

  except of course for all the evidence FOR supernatural powers like eye-witness testimony

  SB, the eye-witness testimony your are referring to have been dead for about 2,000 years.

  1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

  Give me the name and address of just ONE of these witnesses so I can go and question considering THEY ARE STILL LIVING ACCORDING TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

  Imagine if someone accused you of murdering an entire family and all you had to defend yourself was 500 witnesses with no name, no address so that your defense attorney could question them.

  That's all you had.

  What do you think the Jury's verdict would be, along with the judge and your own attorney.
  

  
  

  
  
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  joey jojo

  Until this thread, I hadnt realised - or taken notice of, how many books of the NT were written by Paul, who never met Jesus. If you include another 2 books, written by his companion Luke, who also didnt know Jesus and over whom Paul may have had some influence, thats over half the NT written by 1 guy and his best friend.

  The 4 gospels almost certainly werent written by their alleged authors and appear to be second hand at best, written decades after the fact.

  Thats an extremely shaky foundation that 30% of the world have put their faith in.