Bad memories

by JW72 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • riz
    riz

    Wow, Ginny.

    Wow.

    I felt like I was there. You are a great writer. And you remind me a lot of myself when I was 10 and thought there were absolutely no holes in 'our' (WT's) viewpoints.

    When I was that age, I remember a classmate asking the class why anyone would want to be called sheeplike, since sheep had the intellectual capacity of a potato.

    Sure, they will drown themselves in a mudpuddle if you don't remove them from it, but they are meek and they follow so willingly...
    the latter being my arguments as to why it's a compliment to be called sheeplike of course. LOL.

    If I only knew then what I know now... how much heartache I could have avoided. I'm sure we can all relate to that feeling.

    riz
    (p.s. I'm chock full of bad memories. I'll dredge up a real gem for your reading pleasure when I'm more alert.)

    Insanity in individuals is something rare- but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. - Nietzsche

  • Tina
    Tina

    Greetings All!

    Ginny,I can certainly relate to your experience!
    I too,used wts lit. in school.....I particularly remember giving a report on why we didn't salute the flag.(and other issues)
    Not saluting the flag,not participating in holiday school projects,etc. did not 'win over' any class-mates.(or make any friends,let alone not being asked to join group activities)
    In fact they thought I was weird,and they gave me and any other jw kids wide berth.
    This led to increased isolation and alienation in school. School is tough enough as it is,let alone adding jw behaviors into the equation.

    Following wts dictum consistently puts a child outside normal group experiences and social interactions. It's no wonder so many JW kids grow up lacking many social/interpersonal communication skills. Not to mention the detrimental emotional and psychological aspects of 'school life'.

    It's not a happy life for many JW kids in school. At least from my personal and the experiences of other JW kids I knew.
    Just a thought here,regards,tina

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    I have lot's of bad things, but try not to dwell on them. (not to say, that I couldn't relate to the things mentioned here)
    But I just have to tell this one. Went out in service on a Saturday morning. Knocked on a door and a guy from my school, (he was a couple grades ahead of me) answered the door in his pajamas. I don't know who was more embarrassed. Anyway, I stumbled through the presentation. Monday at school I told a few of my friends. So we all started yelling "Hey PJ" whenever he got close to us. The upshot was, he started dating one of the girls and they got married. Pretty cool, actually. They were married for a long time. Got divorced a few years back. No kids (I think).
    Anyway when life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
    Again, I don't mean this to disparage anything that hurt the rest of you guys. Some of the memories are very painful!! Keep on speaking your hearts!
    TW

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Hey Ginny...

    An absolutely brilliant and painful piece of writing. I'm sorry so many of us have to relate in one way or another to what you said. It just isn't right.

    At the same time I wonder though if those experiences somehow added up and forced us to take a more honest and critical look at what we believed. Perhaps not so much at the time but maybe it did years down the road.

    Path

  • waiting
    waiting

    wendy,

    These are not even close to the same types of abuse. But both constitute in my eyes, child abuse of the worst kind. - wendy

    No, they not the same type of child abuse. Your right in that there are many types of child abuse - but by the definition of the word "worst," all cannot be the "worst." I would wager that most of us here don't know what "the worst" actually consists of, because that child probably is dead.

    I was 18 when I started studying with the jw's and in college. In English class, I decided to do a paper on just how correct the jw's were in their teachings. Was as important paper, constituting nearly a third of my grade. I worked all day at my job and went to class at night, paying for it myself - so I didn't have the freedom to flunk and just do it again.

    I wrote my paper showing, what I thought were good arguments on the jw side - and how wrong other religions were. Too bad my professor didn't agree with me - flunked the paper. The only saving grace was that I didn't have to read the paper outloud.

    At least I learned to be a bit more quiet about my perceived new found truths. Still, an expensive experience for an 18 year old.

    Ok experience for you, wendy?

    waiting

  • LovesDubs
    LovesDubs

    [Q]She had somehow failed to notice my red eyes and flushed face. I walked outside and sat on a swing alone, twisting back and forth, dragging the toe of my shoe in the dust.[/Q]

    Ginny

    She didnt fail to notice hon...moms dont miss that stuff, but because you SAID it went well...she let it go so not to embarrass you. Moms are cool that way.

    :)

  • mommy
    mommy

    I am going to have to agree with Loves here, Ginny. Your mom may have known and was allowing you to save face, what a sweetheart. As the others have mnentioned I thought your story was wonderfully written, and my heart went out to you.

    Waiting,
    Whoa, slow down.

    Ok experience for you, wendy?~waiting

    I said before, this is not a battle. If that is what you are looking for, you will have to look elsewhere, cause I am not playing.
    wendy
  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Riz,

    Thank you for your kind words. "I felt like I was there," is one of the best compliments I can imagine.

    Pathofthorns,

    Thanks to you, too, for your praise. I think you are right, that these experiences, even though painful, somehow added up and forced us to take a more honest and critical look at what we believed. When I ask myself what led me to seriously question and delve into JW issues, it was not any one big event, but the accumulation of chance encounters, things I'd read and heard, movies, books, and glimpses into the true nature of some in the congregation.

    For example, in 1976 I was in eighth grade and expecting Armageddon any day. My best friend at school, Rachel, not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, asked me, "What will you do if the end doesn't come?" That wasn't even a possibility in my mind. "When will the end come, do you think?" she asked. This system could not last more than a few years at the most, maybe five at the longest. "Well, if the end has not come in fifteen years, will you stop believing?" Fifteen years until the end was an utter impossibility in my mind. A generation could only be 80 years with special mightiness. It was a bet I couldn't lose. "Sure," I answered smugly. She frowned and said, "Well, I just want you to know that I plan to send you a Christmas card in 1991."

    I never forgot her words. Ginny, who never thought she'd enjoy the heady teenage pleasure of having a locker in high school, not only survived to graduate, but lived to see 1991. Rachel did not send the Christmas card, but I remembered. I didn't hold to the bargain. I still continued as a JW. Just a little while longer . . .

    LovesDubs,

    I will have to ask my mother what she remembers. My impression was that her perceptions were selective--she wanted to see what agreed with her beliefs at the time. My mother then was very proud and concerned with appearances. It would have been difficult for her to face that not only had her star child been shamed in front of a classroom of children, but also that her religion had not held up to questioning. Consciously or unconsciously, I think she chose not to see.

    Ginny

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Ginny,

    I had a mother (non jw) who had selective eyes, ears, etc. - and usually for keeping up appearances also. So much easier to turn stone and smiling than to face reality.

    Imho, a mother who noticed her star child had been crying would ask what was wrong. If the child said nothing, they probably would prey under the surface. That's also what mothers do well - pry into their children's lives. It's a responsibility and a gift.

    I enjoyed your writing.

    waiting

  • waiting
    waiting

    Since this thread is about jw memories, I'm putting this post up again. It's strongly worded by M2U. He's not here now, but since he's posted it several times now, I hope he won't mind me posting it once again.

    There are all kinds of childhoods in the organization.
    *******************************************************************

    [ HOURGLASS2 OUTPOST ] [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ FAQ ]

    Posted by m2u [m2u] on August 05, 2000 at 11:17:54 {tCAtrGSuAAlzqwofbSj.dG.N2VD2jo}:

    As some may know. I was raised in a very rough third world country, we were serving where "the need was great".

    This was a country under military dictatorship. It was a country constantly under martial law, if you turned a porch light on after dark it could result in your being fired upon. A place where you heard the screams of those being tortured by the national guard or police when you walked by the basement level windows of their respective stations.

    A place where my friend, A study, Donald Monroy was sitting on a bench in front of the local high school reading a anti-government tract put out by the jesuits was pulled down off the bench made to kneel, a pronouncement was made to the students..."This is what happens to anyone found with subversive materail" and was then beheaded on the spot, right next to me. His blood spattered on my white shirt, he was 15 years old.

    So now you get an idea of the kind of Disneyland I lived in. There are 1 or 2 on this board who know of where I speak and I ask them not to identify the place as this could identify me and result in a complete cutting off of what little contact I have left with my family.

    The brother I will tell you about was as pure as the driven snow. He was a full time pioneer, 100 hrs. per month and also worked full time as a servant of a high ranking member of the military junta at the officer's personal estate. He was very handsome and had a magnetic personality. Many were very jealous of his acceptance into the upper echelon of society due to his personal qualities. I will call him M.

    M never missed a chance to preach the "good news".

    His employer had a beautiful daughter who was interested in anything & evreything. He had been preaching to her carefully for quite some time, nothing seem'd to come of it so her father really paid no attention...until she began to recieve a personal bible study with a local sister that was arranged for her by M.

    Now the father was unhappy, he being a staunch roman catholic and a national figure. He first warned his daughter of his displeasure after about 6 months went by and he saw she had begun to attend meetings. M and the girl sat together at the meetings and he and the sister conducting the study would walk her to and from the meetings.

    The father began to get very upset and order'd his daughter to cease the study and meeting attendace "or else".

    By now two things had started to happen. The girl sincerely wanted to dedicate her life to god via JW's. And she had also fallen in love with M, a member of the lowest class of their society.

    This could not be permitted so the father had the sister conducting the study arrested and brought to the military barracks. There, he spelled it out for her in no uncertain terms. Continue and die. She went to M and told him that they would have to figure something out in order to continue to help the girl into the truth. M said that due to the fact that the father was not allowing the girl out of the house and that he was an inside employee...he would continue to conduct the personal study and if possible, hold clandestine meetings in the home for the girls spiritual edification, so he began to study with her and conduct watchtower studies whenever possible.

    This was very difficult because the girl was almost never left alone, out of sight of bodyguards or domestic servants that had known her from her infancy, who were also devout roman catholics. She had a close friend and bodyguard, son of a low ranking officer who had been kind of an official playmate and went on to military service and was assigned to her as bodyguard and orderly. M (forgot to mention) had also grown up in the house as his mother had been the laundress and M was thus grandfathered in, if you will.

    Well the bodyguard loved the girl as a sister and M as a brother so he let them carry on and kept their secret. But in a house like that there are NO secrets, the other servants knew something was going on and informed the father.

    The father held a meeting with M, the girl and the bdyguard and pretty much spelled it out for them, that this would end very badly if it kept up(The officer was unusually patient with them, as one was his daughter, and the others had been second generation raised in his household and were kind of like favorite pets).

    As you may have guessed the covert activities were not stopped, in fact the daughter and M both went to the father and said two things to him. 1. She desired to become a baptised JW and 2. She and M wished to be married. The father said that he was deeply hurt that they had not honored his wishes, he stated to M and the bodyguard that he felt that they had betrayed his trust, disrespected his home and dishonored the position he had granted them in a house of tremendous privilege and prestige.

    The Daughter was soon sent overseas to study at university. The bodyguard begged for forgiveness and said that he would do anything in order to prove his love and loyalty to his commander.

    M said that he too felt very badly for displeasing his benefactor but could not apologize for trying to carry out the instructions of his god. The father said that he understood that they were both very young, and never to betray him again. The bodyguard said he would never do so, M said that he would not either but that when it came to obedience to god or man he would obey god. The father commended the bodyguard and sent him on about his business, he told M that he had respected him in some ways but that in others he was an abject fool, then he sent him back to his duties. A few months went by and things got back to normal.

    One weekend M said that he was going to the capitol to buy some new clothes for the upcoming national JW convention. He left on the bus.

    No one outside of the home of the girls father ever saw M again.

    The bus M was on was stopped by the national guard(storm troopers essentially) and all passengers were placed on trucks and told that they were going to be interviewed. They were all interviewed and released but somehow M was lost in the shuffle. Some of the other passengers recalled seeing M on the bus but in the confusion that followed none of them remember'd seeing M. M was officially released and then dissapear'd ...

    Years later with no word from M. The bodyguard had been mortally wounded in a firefight between his unit(he had been recently promoted to lead a combat unit) and insurgents. As he lay dieing, he asked a close comrade to tell a priest the following and ask that the priest beseach the lord for forgiveness and entrance to purgatory then heaven, Also to get word out without endangering himself about what had happen'd to M.

    M had been abducted and taken to the military leaders barracks. He was stripped naked and the military leader himself began to torture him in every way he could think of that did not break bones or cause lesion which could become infected. This was to happen 24/7 until M finally passed away. M was stripped naked and chained inside of an outdoor corral in the middle of the military leaders private barracks compound.

    There M was provided a shovel and ordered to dig 2 large holes. Once M had finished the holes he was ordered to continue to re-fill and re-dig the holes on a non-stop continuous basis 24/7. shoveling the dirt in and out of the holes in the courtyard of the officer as an source of amusement to him and his cronies. M was left out there digging 24 hrs. per day and forced via torture to continue until collapse at which point he would be allowed to rest only long enough in order to continue the on-going shoveling, and when it rained he would have to shovel mud.

    M was provided only enough water to sustain life, less when the weather was temperate and slightly more when it was hot. For food M was provided the following menu. Stray dogs were brought to the barracks and kept uncared for and unfed in a seperate corral.

    At the proper time one of these festering dogs was released into M's corral where he remained chained.

    If M desired to eat he had to catch the dog with his bare hands, kill it with his bare hands, and again with no weapon or tools besides his hands, he had to somehow skin and eviscerate the dog. Only when he had entirely consumed the entire dog did the renewed watch for the apropriate time to provide another mangy disease ridden dog for his consumption resume. Of course some dogs did not go quietly and inflicted injury upon M to the point of rabies from which he died a slow agonizing death in the end. If M did not catch the dog right away he had to wait to eat until he finally managed to catch it. M was kept alive as long as possible under these circumstances, receiving only the medical intervention that would suffice to prolong his agony for as long as possible.

    Anytime M would give up, he would be mercilessly tortured, again only in ways that would not prevent him from continuing to dig.

    It is said that the entire episode was recorded on film and through photographs with various participants in order to prevent them from talking.

    The bodyguard had been in charge of the entire process from start to finish in the cruel murder of his lifelong friend.The bodyguard said that M prayed outloud often thanking god for the opportunity to serve him but not praying for death as this would bring on a terrible torture session. The bodyguard said that he actually tried to witness to his murderers even though this would bring them down on him right away.

    M was my friend although he was older than me. He is not the only friend I have lost to evil men over my lifetime. When I would call my father from the USA and ask him how things were going...he would always answer"Well...you have a lot less friends now then you used to have".

    This is the first time I have told M's story to outsiders. I have several more as I have said in the past. Maybe it's because I am feeling my mortality and I want to tell their stories so people will be aware of what is really going on out there.

    Soon I will tell you of the fate of Hector, my special piuoneer partner who was also murdered right by my side while we were out in service in 1975.

    Until then.

    m2u
    ******************************************************************

    m2u has also written about his own childhood, and escaping from his special pioneer parents in a 3rd world country. I don't have that post, but it made me stop and think about all that I have to be greatful for. He went through things we don't even imagine.

    waiting

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