by UnDisfellowshipped 15 Replies latest watchtower bible
CZAR said:
I don't trust the Bible. I've never seen anyone be resurrected, I've never seen a miracle cure. The closest that humans have come to anything like that is thanks to science - antibiotics and whatnot. And science says we evolved from dumb beasts and die just like them.
I will try to reply to your comments soon.
I don't trust the theory of evolution. I have never seen life suddenly pop out of non-life all by itself. I have never seen any animal evolve into anything else.
I have never seen any animal evolve into anything else.
According to this teaching.....you nor anyone else ever will. This theory teaches this is a process that takes much time. You would at least think there would be a kangaroo hopping around with a flipper sticking out of his side or something though....wouldn't you?
As for the comment made about who was the first to ascend to heaven........The scripture that says david didn't go to heaven but said he was to wait till the lord was there first.....I too never had it explained to me. If men were guilty of sin before Jesus blood was poured out......how could any enter heaven? The bible say's enoch was taken by God.......not brought to his side in heaven.
As you know....I don't believe the bible is God's word any longer, but I still like to use it to disprove illogical reasoning of those who believe it, and to also show of inconsistancies that exist within it's pages.
Gumby
CZAR said:
I don't think that Solomon meant that there was life after death at all - even if he existed and wrote this book of Ecclesiastes. The whole book is full of statements like "No knowledge nor devising... in Sheol" and "There exists nothing but to eat, drink, and see good for all the hard work" and that everything is vanity and striving after wind. It sounds like the world-weary writings of somebody that didn't believe in much after death at all.
I mean, even your example shows how this writer was questioning life after death, saying that nobody knows where the spirit of men and animals goes after we die. His whole point was that living life to the fullest now was the essential thing, and everything else was meaningless because we die and take nothing with us.
Let's look at some more Verses of Ecclesiastes:
Ecclesiastes 9:5: For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6: Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:10: Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
The writer of Ecclesiastes was saying that when a person dies, and goes to Sheol/Hades, that person no longer has any work, knowledge, or wisdom about things that are happening under the sun (in other words, on Earth).
Also, notice:
Ecclesiastes 3:17: I said in my heart, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."
Ecclesiastes 12:13: This is the end of the matter. All has been heard. Fear God, and keep His Commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:14: For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it is good, or whether it is evil.
If the writer of Ecclesiastes believed that when you die, you go into oblivion, then when would God judge everyone? Would God judge everyone while they are in oblivion? It is apparent to me that the writer of Ecclesiastes believed that God would judge everyone after they have died. If God judged everyone after they had gone into oblivion, what would be the point? They would not be conscious of the judgment. That would make no sense.
CZAR said:
As for why God would create us to fade into oblivion - as Voltaire said, "You arrogant atom!" What on earth gives you the impudent idea that your tiny life actually matters? In a universe where galaxies collide, where the very stars themselves burn out and die, where random meteorite strikes wipe out entire ecosystems - why WOULD our short lives be so special that we should be granted immortality, which the planet we came from does not have?
Who can speak for God? Who can say, "God will do this," or "God will do that." If God created the universe, what makes you think he even noticed US?
On the other hand, if he did condescend to notice our tiny intelligence and frail bodies, what would be the point of making this entire universe to serve as a kind of breeding ground for angels? Why didn't he just make angels to begin with? If mankind is the center of the universe, then God has some serious wasted space on His hands. Stars burning out and nobody to notice their passing?
No, mankind is NOT the meaning of the universe. Immortality is NOT our destiny. Only death. Like everything from atoms to galaxies, we will entropy and die having served some purpose that only the Great Designer can fathom.
Well, you certainly have the right to believe whatever you want.
First, you said "Who can speak for God? Who can say, "God will do this," or "God will do that."
But then you said "Why didn't he just make angels to begin with? If mankind is the center of the universe, then God has some serious wasted space on His hands."
Isn't that statement telling God what to do, or "second-guessing" God?
There are several reasons why I believe that God not only notices us, but also loves us:
1: I believe in the Bible with all my heart (for several different reasons, which I can try to post later, please see my Thread called "My Testimony"). The Bible says that God is love, and that God created humans in His image, with His qualities, such as love, mercy, justice, and compassion, and that God loves us so much that He came to Earth and died for us, even though we absolutely did not deserve to be saved from Hell.
2: God created humans with a yearning to keep living forever, and not wanting to ever die, or as the writer of Ecclesiastes said "He has put eternity into their hearts". I believe it would have been cruel to create humans with the desire to live forever, and then to just let them all die and go into oblivion.
3: God created humans with a brain with enormous capabilities to learn things, and since we are only using a tiny, tiny fraction of our brain, I don't see why God would have given us the amazing brains we have, if we are never going to be able to use them fully.
4: God created humans with an inborn spiritual need -- a desire to worship a higher power (I believe all people have this at some time in their lives). For example, I'm pretty sure that you had this desire (at least once in your life), if you are a former Jehovah's Witness, because I am guessing that you became a JW because you wanted to know about, and worship God. If God does not care about or notice us, then why would He have created us with an inborn desire to worship Him?
So, if somehow, some way, you end up being correct about God not caring about us humans, then so what? What difference would it make if I am wrong? If you are correct, everyone on Earth is just going to end up in an unconscious death anyway. I would much rather believe in the God of love who loves us, the God of the Bible, than to believe in your God, a God who created us with an inborn desire to worship Him, and an inborn desire to live forever, and with the ability to love Him and other humans, only to ignore us and have us all go off into oblivion.
I really enjoyed your post. I agree with most of what you said. I too would like to hear what you have to say about Jesus being the first to go to heaven. I have my own thoughts on this.... and I'm not totally sure. I think maybe that when you are resurrected you go to a place in heaven but that is not the final l place. I think you go to a place that is like a holding place if you will, then at the time of judgement those who are Christians will go to the ultimate heaven. The scripture in Matt where it talks about Lazarus and the rich man elude to this I think. THis is only my opinion and I'm not totally sold on this thought yet I'm still studying.
Artful, and Lv4fer,
I apologize for the delay in posting the different lines of thought about Jesus being the first to ascend to Heaven. I was hoping to be able to post this information sooner.
Line of Thought # 1: Jesus Christ was the first Person to go to Heaven, ever:
Some Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the first Person ever to go to Heaven, based on the following Scriptures:
John 3:13: No one has ascended into Heaven, except He who descended out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven.
Acts 2:34: For David did not ascend into the Heavens...
1st Corinthians 15:20: But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the First Fruits of those who are asleep.
Revelation 1:5: and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the Earth. To Him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by His Blood;
And, most of the Christians who believe this line of thought, also believe that everyone who died before Jesus Christ was resurrected, their souls/spirits went to the Paradise in Hades/Sheol [the land of the dead, where souls go to], which is also known as "The Bosom of Abraham". And, most of these Christians also believe that there are two separate parts of Hades/Sheol: One is a Paradise where the servants of God went when they died, and the other is a place of fiery torment, where everyone else went when they died.
This line of thought might explain why Jesus said that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom" instead of saying Lazarus went to "Heaven", and it might also explain why Jesus told the thief on the Cross that he would go to Paradise, instead of saying he would go to Heaven.
And I believe that most of the Christians who believe this line of thought, believe that Jesus, as a Soul/Spirit, separate from His Body, went to the Paradise of Hades/Sheol when He died, and then on the third day, Jesus rose out from Hades, took His (now-glorified and immortal) Human Body back, and also, when Jesus ascended into Heaven, He took all of the servants of God who were resting in the Paradise of Hades, to Heaven to be with Him forever.
Matthew 27:52-53: The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His [Jesus'] resurrection, they entered into the Holy City and appeared to many.
These Christians also believe that now, whenever anyone who believes in Jesus Christ dies, they go directly to Heaven as a soul/spirit to be with Jesus, and then, at the Rapture, they will receive Immortal Glorified Bodies.
Also, when God "took" Enoch, He took his soul/spirit to the Paradise of Hades/Sheol.
This line of thought makes a lot of sense to me, and I believe it is in harmony with most, if not all, of the Bible.
However, a couple of Scriptures that might be hard to explain using this line of thought are 2nd Kings 2:1 and 2:11:
2nd Kings 2:1: It happened, when Yahweh would take up Elijah by a whirlwind into Heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2nd Kings 2:11: It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both apart; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven.
Perhaps, this "Heaven" was the Paradise of Hades/Sheol. Or, perhaps the 2nd Line of Thought is correct?
Line of Thought # 2: Jesus Christ was the first Person to go to Heaven with a glorified immortal body:
Some Christians believe that when the Bible says that no one ascended to Heaven before Jesus Christ, it means that no one ever ascended to Heaven with a glorified immortal body.
The Bible says that Jesus is the "Firstborn of the dead" and the "First Fruits of the dead", however, we know that other people were raised up from the dead before Jesus was (in fact Jesus resurrected at least 3 people while on Earth), however, all of those people were raised up in corruptable sinful human bodies, and their resurrections were temporary and the people died again later, so, when the Bible says that Jesus was the "Firstborn of the dead", it must mean that Jesus was the First Person ever to be raised up Immortal with a Glorified Body.
These Christians believe that, in the same way that Jesus was the First Person to be resurrected in an Immortal Body, that when the Bible says that Jesus is the First Person to ascend to Heaven, it means that He was the First Person to ascend to Heaven with an Immortal Body.
These Christians believe that all faithful servants of God who have ever died [before and after the resurrection of Jesus], have gone directly to Heaven as souls/spirits to be with God.
These Christians also believe that at the Rapture, all human souls in Heaven will receive Immortal Glorified Bodies [and this is called "The Resurrection"].
To be honest with everyone, I am not really sure which line of thought is correct. I definitely am going to do more studying on this subject.
Thanks for the research UD! Some interesting lines of reasoning here. I have pasted this into a file and will review it in detail later.
Cheers
Artful
