"Jehovah Has ALWAYS Had An Organization"

by minimus 73 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  blacksheep

  That's such a generic (and meaningless) statement, I think I'd ask the JW to take a step back and explain what he means by that statement. Define "organization." How is that point, i.e., that God's "always had one" prove the validity of the WTS (which is what I'm thinking they must be trying to prove). Obviously, just because someone suggests that "God's always had an org," it doesn't mean that any particular org that claims to be from god is "god's org." Otherwise, JW's are on equal footing with LOTS of other religious orgs.

  How would you assess that an org is from God (since God's "always" had an org). Do you compare "past" orgs he's allegedly been working through to the WTS? Did THOSE orgs count and report the time they've spent selling religious pubs door-to-door, the number of pubs they sold, the number of publication studies they conducted, the number of return visits to people who bought the pubs, etc? Did THOSE orgs have designated classes of people, i.e., elder, ministerial servant, district overseer, pioneer, special pioneer, temporary pioneer, etc. Just how SIMILAR is the WTS to "past orgs" God has used...(?)

  I'm sure you won't get that far. But, the bottom line is a) that statement is unprovable; and b) even if if WERE provable, the underlying assumption is that the WTS is THEREFORE God's chosen org. That's even MORE unprovable.
• 

  ChristianObserver

  Found the following on an AOL message board which seems related to the discussion here. Anyone who uses AOL can access the board. Type The Faith into the web address bar, then click Messages, then select The Faith, then select TESTIMONY OF ANNE. There don't seem to be any ex-Jehovah's Witness posting there btw.

  For those who cannot access the board

  Subject: Re: TESTIMONY OF "ANNE" former Jehovah's Witness
  Date: 07/04/2003 21:06 GMT Standard Time
  Response from: Chicnagorb (replying to the questions in italics following on from discussion about God's spirit-directed organisation)
  
  >Do you think then that any people who ardently desire to seek God, to be
  >footstep followers of Jesus, who love God with all their hearts and their
  >neighbours as themselves, and who have been baptised in the name of the
  >Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, but who are not associated with
  >the Watchtower Society, are denied direction by means of the Holy Spirit?

  The apostle Paul in the first century had a Zeal for God but not according to accurate Knowledge he followed the Jewish system.

  I'm sure you'll agree that to be a footstep follower of Jesus then one must do what he did. Jesus’ disciples followed his footsteps in Christian educational work and had success similar to his. They not only preached the good news of God's Kingdom everywhere but also taught those who would listen. (Ac 2:42)

  They, like Jesus, were bold and spoke with authority. (Ac 4:13, 19, 20; 5:29) God’s spirit empowered them and gave evidence of divine approval of their teaching. They taught in the temple, in synagogues, and from house to house. (Ac 5:16, 21; 13:14-16; 20:20) They met with fellow Christians for teaching and inciting one another to love and fine works.—Ac 20:7, 8; Heb 10:24, 25.

  The apostle Paul described the different offices and activities in the congregation that were filled by mature men, among them being teachers. He showed that the purpose of all these activities was education, with a view to the training of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ. (Eph 4:11-16) A regular program of education in God’s Word was carried on by the congregation, as outlined in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. All the members of the Christian congregation, even the women, were to be teachers; they were to make disciples of the people of the world. (Ac 18:26; Heb 5:12; Ro 12:7) But within the congregation itself mature men were appointed to oversight, as, for example, Timothy and Titus. (1Ti 2:12) Such men had to be those qualified to teach the congregation and to correct things that may have got out of line. They were to use extraordinary care to ensure that their teaching was accurate and healthful.—1Ti 4:16; 2Ti 4:2, 3; Tit 2:1.

  First century christians set the criteria for christians today, who are also commissioned to preach a teach the good News of God's kingdom world wide. Therefore christians who would be doing that work, on Jesus inspection, would be the ones he would appoint over all his belongings Mt 24:45-47.

  So the question is which group are fulfilling that criteria of those first century Christians today? It is Jehovah's people.
• 

  minimus

  Bottom line: The Society loves to make an erroneous statement and then build "facts" around it. Who says, Jehovah ALWAYS had an organization? The Bible? God himself? The apostles?......The Watchtower Society. That's who!
• 

  TheOldHippie

  And the Watchtower replies:

  *** pe chap. 23 p. 192 God’s Visible Organization ***

  The Bible shows that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way.

  *** w65 7/15 p. 426 Jehovah’s Advancing Organization ***

  Jehovah’s earthly organization has been represented throughout the ages by men of integrity who manifested deep loyalty to him. Wherever they resided, they represented his earthly organization. At times this association of loyal worshipers was very limited in number, consisting of as few as one to eight persons, as in the days of Abel, Enoch and Noah.

  Minimus, my dear, if needed, I have no problems with laying down on my back like my dog does, stretch out my legs and beg for forgiveness - or smooth words ensuring me you don't hate me after all. But these quotes are examples of that fine wording, that fine way of saying things without saying them, and still having said them etc. which one so often finds in questions like these. OK, so He has alwasy guided His servants in an organized way - but is an organized way the same as an organization? The organization has been represented by men, at times as few as one. One one man representing someone an organization? It still is a yes and a no, isn't it?
• 

  Satanus

  OH

  The wt says his org is at times represented by only one songle individual, yet contradicts this as a possibility ...

  *** w54 10/15 p. 639 Questions from Readers ***This Jehovah supplies, not through individuals, but through his organization. (Prov. 3:5, 6) He has so operated with this group in the past and he is still doing so, as the physical facts abundantly confirm. Past history of the organization has shown that those who split off, thinking themselves smarter than the Society, are soon swallowed up in the seas of humanity.

  *** w67 10/1 p. 587 Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization ***Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.

  *** pe chap. 30 p. 255 What You Must Do to Live Forever ***There was just the one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization—God’s visible organization—that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation."

  While they used lawyer babble in minimus' quotes, such as an individual who represents god org, in order to obscure exactly what the org is, i believe that in my last quote above they were forced to say that it is a visible org.

  SS
• 

  Will Power

  Therefore christians who would be doing that work, on Jesus inspection, would be the ones he would appoint over all his belongings Mt 24:45-47.

  Wouldn't the inspection have found them worshiping Christ (not as an angel) celebrating Christmas, saluting the flag, denouncing organizations!

  just a thought.

  will
• 

  NeonMadman

  Minimus, my dear, if needed, I have no problems with laying down on my back like my dog does, stretch out my legs and beg for forgiveness - or smooth words ensuring me you don't hate me after all. But these quotes are examples of that fine wording, that fine way of saying things without saying them, and still having said them etc. which one so often finds in questions like these. OK, so He has alwasy guided His servants in an organized way - but is an organized way the same as an organization? The organization has been represented by men, at times as few as one. One one man representing someone an organization? It still is a yes and a no, isn't it?

  No apologies are needed, and I, for one, don't hate you, even though I think that sometimes you bend over too far backwards trying to defend the WTS. They certainly don't deserve it. The above reminds me a lot of the way the WTS parses words to deny that it ever predicted anything for 1975. The bottom line is that the vast majority of JW's think that "Jehovah has always worked through an organization." I can't tell you how many times I've been told that by a JW - I even used to think it was true myself. The WTS, of course, has carefully chosen its words so as to give that impression, without actually saying it. That way, when they are challenged, they can backpedal and claim they never said such a thing. Just more deception. And the worst part is, you seem to recognize the deception, when you refer to "that fine way of saying things without saying them, and still having said them." But then, instead of just admitting that they are deceivers, you do a 180 and proceed to defend their deception as having validity! I just don't get you, Hippie. If you truly recognize them for what they are, as you seem to, why do you continue to defend them?
• 

  minimus

  Old Hippie, I still think that you must get in the doggy position. Neon is 100% correct on all his statements. (He is my new God). If the WT. states the organization can be from a starting point of one man, Abel, the "first witness", they are clearly trying to convey that the organization of Witnesses has been around from near creation (of man's) beginning. That's easy to comprehend and it's not something that can be misunderstood. Hippie, I remember when you were very pro Witness and then you seemed to have a crisis of conscience. Where are you on the WT. radar today?
• 

  gumby

  In the 1000 year book ( the yellow one ) there is a chapter discussing Russels early years. In that book it mentions that Russel got ideas from no one. He didn't WANT to look at things through "sectarian glasses"

  Then in the green book, JW in the 20th century....it mentiones that he PRIVATELY took the bible off the shelf and "GOD TURNED ON THE LIGHT TO THE 20TH CENTURY"

  In both cases, the statement is made that russels start began with........no one but himself. He was a presbyterian who was dissatisfied with religion and STARTED his own.

  None of this fits with what the W.T. describes as god ALWAYS having a "slave class" on earth at any given point in time since Pentecost. If this were true....then all C.T. Russel had to do was.....hook up with the ALREADY EXISTING slave class and learn from them He NEVER did such a thing.

  Gumby ( I wasn't to helpful in not providing where the info. on this is as I'm off to work and no time...sorry )
• 

  NeonMadman

  Neon is 100% correct on all his statements. (He is my new God).

  Be careful! Do not do that, I am only a man like you. Worship God.