by Dawn 16 Replies latest jw friends
SyrupDelicious , thanks for those later refs. I'm still figuring out the features on the 2001 CD, missed that screen that lists quotes in descending order by year. However, as far as I could find, that w73 was the last time the WTS used the Ezekiel/Jeremiah comparison...convoluted argumentation that makes a plate of spaghetti look simple.
Craig
Dearest Dawn... may you have peace!
May I say, first, that Kenneson's description of my Lord's resurrection, of body and spirit, is correct: the body that my Lord had was "changed" so that his spirit could enter into the spirit realm and preach there (flesh with its blood cannot enter the spirit realm - the flesh returns to the dust). When he returned from the spirit world, he again "put on flesh" so as to become manifest to his disciples and others. It was not the same flesh - not by reason of it having no marks, for it would have been healed anyway - but by reason that it was NOT by means of the flesh that his disciples recognized him... but by means of his VOICE, which came forth from such flesh.
The body CAN be raised up, resurrected, as seen from those who take part in the second resurrection: it is their flesh that is raised up, so that it can be judged. If found with the "covering" of sins, the blood of Christ, its sins are "blotted out" and such ones are given a "white robe"... a SPIRIT body, to "house" the spirit... versus the fleshly one that "houses" it now. If there is not covering, the body (of flesh) AND the spirit... are destroyed... in "Gehenna" - Matthew 10:28
As usual, the JWs have parts right... and parts wrong. But that is a given: Satan keeps transforming himself into a angel of "light" - but that light is not the TRUE Light (John 8:12), and so cannot be completely accurate (which is one reason why it changes all the time!)
Second, as far as my Lord raising himself, did he not say "I am the resurrection and the Life?" And was not ALL authority given him? And did HE not have the keys to Death and Hades? True, Peter said that God raised him, and that, too, is true. God raised my Lord by means of GRANTING him such authority; my Lord did NOTHING of his own initiative, but only that which the Father granted him. So, true, my Lord raised himself... but it was by means of the authority and power GIVEN him by my Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... that my Lord, His Son, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... could do so. And the Son himself always acknowledged that and gave the "glory"... to God.
I hope this helps, and again, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Thanks for your comments all. I think I'll pose this question to the next JW that comes to my door. I'd be interested in hearing their explanation.
Dawn, this issue can be broken down into two separate subjects. 1. What was raised (A "spiritual body" - JW interpretation vs. Jesus's literal body - Bible teaching) 2. Who did the raising (The Father only - JW interpretation vs. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit- Bible teaching) It is probably better to focus solely at first on the #1 issue as this is related to their salvation. Also it is very difficult to discuss multiple subjects at the same time with them. In addition bringing issue #2 into the discussion allows the JW to find "refutations" in his reasoning book (and possibly to redirect the conversation to the Trinity doctrine) whereas focusing soley on issue #1 leaves them with much less literature to use. So my advice is first get them to admit that Jesus's literal body was raised before moving on to the subject of who raised it.
AGuest said:
May I say, first, that Kenneson's description of my Lord's resurrection, of body and spirit, is correct: the body that my Lord had was "changed" so that his spirit could enter into the spirit realm and preach there (flesh with its blood cannot enter the spirit realm - the flesh returns to the dust). When he returned from the spirit world, he again "put on flesh" so as to become manifest to his disciples and others. It was not the same flesh - not by reason of it having no marks, for it would have been healed anyway - but by reason that it was NOT by means of the flesh that his disciples recognized him... but by means of his VOICE, which came forth from such flesh.
AGuest what was resurrected was the same flesh and the same body that died. Though it was a glorious transformed body, it was still the same body and the same flesh that hung on the cross.
I remember the idiot that I studied with said that jesus was resurected as a spirit but took his body from the tomb and hid it so that people wouldn't try and use it as some form of idolotry . The bible doesn't support this at all . I don't have a problem with the raised as a spirit part because jesus did say " Father into your hands I entrust my spirit " prior to his death but when he was resurected it may have been more like the spirit jesus resuming the physical body that he used in his earthly life. There is a part where jesus announced he was taking his ransom to his father which to me would have been his physical body and since when he was accending into heaven he didn't carry his body with him tells me that he was capable of dematerializing as when angels often did in the old testament such as when jacob was wrestling with an angle prior to his becoming Isreal. The angel took the form of a man but then was able to change back into an angel to head back to heaven.
Hi Dawn,
You didn't notice it before because your eyes weren't opened but now they are! I had the same experience after I left. There were many scriptures that I had never really noticed and still everyday I find more. Isn't it great?!
What was happening the three days that Jesus' physical body lay in the tomb? Did he cease to exist? Not according to 1 Peter 3:18-20. Jesus was preaching to spirits (who also had not ceased to exist). But on the third day something happened to Jesus' physical body. Not only was the tomb empty, but his body was changed as evidenced in the appearances to his followers.Kenneson's quote above has great timing for me because I was just talking about that verse in Peter where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. It says that they were the people who died in the Flood back in Noah's day. Jesus preached to them so that they could accept his spirit. Cool. I remember the jw's saying that this just wasn't true and that Jesus was just dead in the grave. That always stuck with me. It's because they were wrong. I think that this example of Jesus' death is a picture for us. Just as His body of flesh died, ours will too and just as his spirit (soul) was still alive in the spirit realm so will we be.......then just as his body rose later, so will ours. That perfectly fits what Paul said about being away from the body and being home with the Lord. Then, there is the bodily resurrection when Jesus returns. love, dj
Insight on the Scriptures-Volume 1 Page 373:
...Jesus was using figurative speech, referring to "the temple of his body." ...
...This use of building as applied to one’s body is not unique, for, speaking of Eve’s creation, it was said: "And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman."—Ge 2:22.
WTF does that mean? Just because something was 'built' does not mean it was a 'buliding'! You can 'build' a sandwich, a court case and even a better mouse trap for godsake! JWs are so stupid!
Ravyn
