Jesus - The GREAT DEBATER

by proplog2 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    The Watchtower tries to portray Jesus as a person who avoided arguments.
    Why would they do this? There are two reasons. One reason is to keep
    its members from getting caught in debates that could possibly damage their
    trust in Watchtower teachings. Second the Watchtower can use that false image
    of Jesus as a justification for ignoring serious challenges to their authority.
    This is the basic idea presented in the following quote from an article in
    the August 1 1993 article "Let No One Spoil Your Useful Habits"

    "Many people will debate for hours, week after week, but not because they
    are seeking truth. They just want to undermine another's faith while flaunting
    their own supposed education in Hebrew, Greek, or evolutionary science. When
    encountering them, some Witnesses have felt challenged and have wound up
    having extended association centered on false religious belief, philosophy,
    or scientific error. It is noteworthy that Jesus did not let that happen
    to him
    , though he could have won debates with religious leaders who were
    schooled in Hebrew or Greek. When challenged, Jesus replied briefly and then
    turned his attention again to humble ones, the real sheep. Matthew 22:41-46;
    1 Corinthians 1:23-2:6"

    Do you see the unsubstantiated claim here? The picture of Christ they want
    to give their readers is a person who gives a brief answer to his challengers
    and then ignores them by teaching those whom he judged as sincere. But lets
    read their proof text and see what really happened there.

    Matthew 22:41-46
    Now while the Pharisees were gathered together
    Jesus asked them "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is
    he?" They said to him: "David's". He said to them: "How, then,
    is it that David by inspiration calls him 'Lord,' saying, 'Jehovah said to
    my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet?"
    If, therefore, David calls him 'Lord,' how is he his son?"
    And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, nor did anyone
    dare from that day on to question him any further.

    We can see that Jesus gave a rebuttal that silenced his questioners. He
    won the argument. After winning the argument the Pharisees were the
    ones that gave up because they had nothing else to say. If they had
    been able to raise another point Jesus would have been obligated to answer
    them. An argument is not finished until one has finished off the
    counterarguments. Typically, when a person loses an argument they
    find a way to politely or impolitely walk away. The person who walks
    away from an argument is usually the loser.

    Rather than ignore questions, a good teacher welcomes the challenge. Jesus
    kept going until his opponents gave up. Isn't that what people ought
    to do when they think they have the TRUTH? The Watchtower has adopted an
    attitude of stonewalling any question that challenges their official teaching.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Well, this post is plunging fast. Not a very good title- but deals with important issue.

    Whatever happened to the editing feature where you can change a heading.

    I should have titled it Was Jesus Afraid of Questions?

    OR maybe Jesus afraid to argue.

  • nowisee
    nowisee

    well i think it is an excellent post.

    probably most people have just walked away because you won the argument!!

  • heathen
    heathen

    I thought the dubs focused on winning debates myself . During the theocratic ministry school they always discuss rebutals to the apostate householder and how to present a convincing arguement . Sounds like a bit of spoiled meat that is outa season there proplog2. These people remind me of the reeds that are tossed about by the wind . Glad you posted that .This is just another example of control without cause .

  • gumby
    gumby
    The Watchtower has adopted an
    attitude of stonewalling any question that challenges their official teaching.

    And as a surprise to me.......other christian groups become shocked and appalled by a member who begins to doubt the faith in christ or the bible they once once had. They are ridiculed for letting Satan enter their thinking and backslidding. There are usually never given the benifit of the doubt that maybe they are onto something or that their questions have any validity.

    Gumby

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    I agree that this is a thread that deserves more comment than it's been getting. The WTBTS' anti-debate argumentation is specious, nothing more than a transparent attempt to keep dubbies from peering into the Society's skeleton-filled closets. And it ain't debate over doctrines like Trinity, Soul Sleep and Hellfire, etc. that worries them; it's issues like NGO, child molestation, dismal record of date-setting, etc. that frighten Brooklyn because they are aware how vulnerable they are.

    They see no inconsistency with their refusal to debate and their aggressively throw down the gauntlet by getting into the public's faces, catching them unawares with their inconsiderate, uninvited visits on Saturday mornings and in effect challenging the hapless householders to defend their religion on the spot.

    They've forgotten how frequently their first two presidents engaged in debate with clerics, but that was before their ``tail of straw" (you know, the kind that will catch fire if one gets too close to the fire) grew to its present huge length.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Jesus wasn't a great debater. Example:

    Jesus to crowd: "If you want eternal blessings, you have to drink my blood and eat my flesh."

    Crowd to Jesus: "Ewwww, gross. See you later, wacko."

    Apostles to Jesus: "Dude, that was pretty whacked. What's wrong with you?"

    Jesus to apostles: "That wasn't what I meant. I meant something else. Ha ha ha!"

    Seriously, Jesus mostly spoke using analogies or "illustrations" that were ambiguous and elusive. He never gave a straight answer! People didn't understand what the hell he was talking about, and that's probably why they were left speechless. And in the centuries following his death, people have slaughtered each other disagreeing about his "simple" message.

    Dedalus, who likes to remember the time Jesus cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season -- ha ha ha! Stupid Jesus.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    The point, Dedalus, was that Jesus, enigma or not, never shrunk from confrontation; he stood toe to toe with the Pharisees and Sadducees.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    The point, Room 215, was that Jesus was a lousy debater and teacher. Dedalus

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Dedalus:

    Perhaps Jesus didn't even exist. That still doesn't change the legend. Those who believe in Jesus (for example - The Watchtower) claim to believe what the Bible says about Jesus. Unfortunately there is a major discrepancy with the way the Watchtower would like to portray Jesus and what is actually said in the Bible.

    Riddles, koans, paradoxes, etc. are still considered effective teaching tools. Wise teachers of the past were NOT technical handbook writers. To engage people on a deep level it is probably more effective to involve the disciple in an "Aha" experience. If people don't have to invest themselves in understanding something it tends to go in one ear and out the other.

    It is obvious that YOU just want to be contrary.

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