Dr Gary habermas is a evangelical Christian so not independent.
That is nonsense. No Real Scotsman fallacy.
His Phd. Thesis on the Resurrection was approved by non believers.
What Does The Organization Really Teach?
by Sea Breeze 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Sea Breeze
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Touchofgrey
What I meant was that as he is a evangelical Christian who takes the bible seriously and believes that jesus is his saviour, he will be influenced by his beliefs. I heard of a geologist with a PhD still believed that the earth is 6000 years old Influenced by his beliefs.
You have yet to provide independent and verified eyewitnes and historical evidence of the resurrection of jesus at the time it was supposedly happen.
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Sea Breeze
Here's the whole argument. It's definitely worth a listen:
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Touchofgrey
https://www.gcrr.org/post/minimalfactsapologetics
Sea breeze please check this link.
Richard Carrier PhD Historian, has YouTube videos and has published many peer reviewed books on the subject of jesus and if he was a real person.
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TonusOH
Thanks for that link, Touchofgrey. It confirms what should already be clear- Habermas engages in dishonest sleight-of-hand with his "minimal facts approach."
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Sea Breeze
There is a near universal majority of scholars in many fields—historians, Bible scholars, New Testament scholars, philologists, archaeologists, anthropologists, literature, folklore and oral history specialists, paleographers, linguistics scholars in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, those in the field of the Classics, a Dead Sea scroll specialist or two, and many others—from atheist to Jew to liberal to fundamentalist Christian, who all agree Jesus existed.
Over the last two hundred years, there has also been a small group called “mythicists” who have asserted there was no historical Jesus. Richard Carrier is a mythicist.
Bart Ehrmann is an "agnostic leaning atheist" New Testament scholar. He is not a Christian.
Here is his critique of Richard Carrier. It's worth a read.
Richard Carrier: A Fuller Reply to His Criticisms, Beliefs, and Claims about Jesus
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Touchofgrey
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420
His reply to bart ,it's a good thing when these people question each other's opinions leds to progress and further research. That what led bart to agnosticism because of his questioning things and doing further research.
Your thoughts on habermas link ?
You still have not provided independent and verified eyewitnes evidence of jesus resurrection.
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Halcon
Touchofgrey-You have yet to provide independent and verified eyewitnes and historical evidence of the resurrection of jesus at the time it was supposedly happen.
For a person, Jesus, who only operated as the Messiah for a scant 3 years at most...and did it trying (desperately at times) to remain anonymous up until his death...sure did have a lasting and critical effect since then.
There's absolutely nothing in the gospels, or the entire Bible for that matter, that points to anything Christ did including the resurrection, that should be recorded and verified by historians.
The world wasn't much interested in the arrival of the Messiah. The Romans themselves, the real movers and shakers of the world at the time, were utterly indifferent to just about anything happening in Judea.
Who really believes that what a bunch of uneducated fishermen and the little towns around them did mattered enough to send historians to Judea and make note of what was happening?
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Touchofgrey
There's absolutely nothing in the gospels, or the entire Bible for that matter, that points to anything Christ did including the resurrection, that should be recorded and verified
Raising dead people back to life , feeding ten thousand people with a few loaves and fishes. Healing thousands of people with various ailments, walking on water etc ,sun going dark for 3 hours ,temple curtain ripped in two ,earthquake and the resurrection of the dead in Jerusalem at his death .
Possibly these things might get someone's attention.
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Halcon
Possibly these things might get someone's attention.
They did. The people that were actually there to see it. But these people, fishermen and goatherders , are very simply waived away.
On the subject of the resurrection, as is described by the gospels. How many historians were sent to his tomb to wait and see Christ risen? None. Nobody cared.
Lest we forget, Augustus had by now exiled even poets for alluding thru pretty cantos that the Caesar was anything less than a god. What reputable historian, IF he was sufficiently compelled, would undermine the god of the Roman empire, and get himself nailed to a cross?