WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon 865 Replies latest social current

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    siegswife, that was an excellent post! You express my feelings to a T.

    Just this last year, after a lifetime of disengagement from society, I've started voting, and am slowly venturing forth to express my political opinions (you know, those opinions that as a JW I was never even supposed to have in the first place ).

    As little as I know about it all, I nevertheless know enough to strongly believe that the current US administration is deliberately taking advantage of the terrorism issue to impose rather more-extreme-than-necessary but "justifiable" limitations on our civil liberties. Bush's own conservative Baptist beliefs are, imo, being reflected in his political agenda, and public policy.

    Just yesterday I saw that Bush defended his decisions about invading and occupying Iraq removing Saddam from power, even though it's now almost a foregone conclusion that the supposed reasons for that action are apparently untenable.

    Whew...that's as much political stuff I've said all month! LOL

    Craig

    PS: This is, however, one of those very few cases where I agree that "the ends justifies the means."

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka

    I'm a patriotic person, but I don't like Bush. Being critical of Bush is not a crime, nor is it unpatriotic. Bush, with the Patriot Act 1 and 2, wants to limit what we can say as people because he wants us to become a totalitarian government, a government that completely controls the people, what they say, do. They want to be the moral judges of us all. If Bush was allowed, he'd persecute all Gay people, Abortion rights activists, peace activists, anyone who he wanted to bother.

    That's why a lot of Americans don't like him, and critisize him. It's doesn't make you unpatriotic to be critical of a man, or the men in charge. If anything, it's an American's duty to put their ideas in play....it's what built america in the first place.

    This thread is fine and truthful. Bush lied to seek his own agenda, and by God, he fooled a whole lot of Americans with his war rhetoric.

    He did this for himself, his cronies, for his own historical signifigance. He doesn't care about the little guy, and he never will.

    Know what would have made him a good president? Fixing things at home here first, preserving freedom through example, patience and a cool eye, and dealing with 'terrorism' (which is starting to be anything that disagrees with the current government) in a different way.

    IMO, bad Americans accept anything that the current administration does because it was their 'team', the guy they voted for. It shouldn't be like that. The two party system has made a whole lot of America stupid monkeys, automatons who accept the inevitable backwardness of the Republicans on the issues at home (aborition, homosexuality, privacy), and the ignorance of the democratic party as to the military, national security.

    Americans need to get rid of the two party system, enable stable, brilliant, and dynamic people the ability to run for office, even if they aren't rich. American's will fight like this (calling each other unpatriotic if they don't agree with each other) until we start voting for people who are truly good presidents, and not just voting for who they think is the lesser of the two evils.

    ash

  • Simon
    Simon

    I think most brit's are amazed at how important money is to becoming president. In fact, it's almost the most important thing and that surely can't be right or the way to get the best person for the job. (I'm not saying, of course, that our own way produces any better but it certainly doesn't have the same significance)

    If it really does produce the most qualified person out of the many million Americans, what are the chances of a previous president's son being so suitable? Is it still the case that "anyone" can become President? All men are equal but some are more equal than others.

    Money buys influence and the influence brings power and the power is used to repay the debts.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    All joking and I told you so's aside, I think once upon a time in a page far far away someone said;

    I think that the issue of whether the leaders knowingly lied and misled people to achieve their aims is important. This is not what democracy is about.

    (see page one of this thread)

    I have to say to me it is the entire issue, one that English face just as Americans do.

    Rather than trying to pretend we were told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth by our leaders and that Armagedon will be coming in 1975 soon within this generation before the end of the century, I think it is time to accept at various ponts we were told what was politically expediant.

    There is NO DISPUTE by anyone that it is a good thing Saddam has gone. Whether the removal of a despot justifies our elected leaders to one extent or the other deceiving us is another question - the only other choice I can see to willful deceit is them being conned by others or them being incompetant.

    This really isn't anti-American. If it is, it is anti-British too, as we've been just as deceieved.

    This is all about anti-deceit. It is all about is government for the people by the people.

    I think that might be something we can all agree on.

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka
    Money buys influence and the influence brings power and the power is used to repay the debts.

    And that's why America, as a political entity, is so corrupt. The care for the little guy is dead in America. There are a thousand poor men who could bring such quality to the government, and a whole bunch of rich men looking to get richer, who will eventually destroy America. Americans will just go along with it, because they think there's no other choice. It's just sad.

    ash

  • shamus
    shamus

    Is there anything to really talk about here?

    Obviously there are none. Obviously it's just more lies by Bush and Blair. Wow. They found a "remote" chemical weapons laboratory that looked like it had been through world war three... that's about it.

    Bush will never get back in office. I hope that he's enjoyed his time....

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka
    They found a "remote" chemical weapons laboratory that looked like it had been through world war three... that's about it.

    LOL. I thought I was the only one who was amused by that. It was probably one of those 'remote secret latrines' used by Saddam to stink his people out of existence.

    Lordy. The US looks like the biggest fool right now. And it's costing us 4 billion a month too. Such a waste.

    ash

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    i think many people abroad, and those americans who aren't drunk on patriotism recognise that the US administration can be very dangerous if unchecked. the world remembers and denounces what happened in Tiemanmen Square in China and rightly so. but people seem to easily forget this...

    http://www.users.bigpond.com/billmastermind/moments05.htm

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Alright here's a few thoughts on political thought and anti-Americanism. Feel free to disagree/call me a prick etc.

    What is the United States of America? The simple answer is that it is a geopolitical entity. Fine, but in this context the question means more: what does America stand for? What are its ideals?

    Two things come to the fore:

    1) the rights and freedoms of the individual

    2) free-market capitalism (which could also be defined as the rights and freedoms of the individual business)

    In the 20th century, America embraced those ideals and cultivated them more than any other country. Because of that, because of the power of the individual that those ideals unleash, America has become the worlds only hyper-power, commercially, politically, and militarily. In contrast, countries that rejected those ideals have sunk into poverty and chaos, as the energy of the individual was contained and smothered. (For more on this, and how the world is indeed becoming a better, freer place, see The Economist study on Capitalism and Democracy: http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1857618)

    Now, it doesn't take too much thinking before you realise that left-wing (Socialist) thought is pretty much diametrically opposed to those two ideals. Instead of the rights and freedoms of the individual, it favours the collective. The State becomes more important than the individual. Instead of the free market, the State controls services and materials, and determines what is and is not permissible in speech, action, commercial activity etc etc. Thus we have, for example, the National Health Service in the UK, a State controlled service to provide universal health care, while "private" services are curtailed. The right and freedom of the individual to offer and accept non-State health services is largely sacrificed in order to promote the collective, as administered by the State. Another example is welfare. The right and freedom of individuals to keep the money they earn is sacrificed by means of taxation to supposedly benefit the collective, as administered by the State, which redistributes this money in the form of handouts.

    The ultimate manifestation of left-wing Socialism is Communism, in which all goods, services and activities are controlled by the State, which supposedly represents the collective of society. No-one has rights, and no-one has freedoms.

    America stands in contrast to all that, and that's why it draws the ire of the political left, for it stands as the most powerful refutation of their dogma. According to the left, capitalism should fail, yet America's commercial supremacy is based upon free-market capitalism. According to the left, it is necessary for the State to control goods and services for everyone's benefit, yet America has built the most successful companies and the most advanced technologies because individuals were to a great extent uninterfered with by the State. Free-market capitalism (the power of the individual business) has lead to huge advances in medicine and science, and has given the average person a lifestyle undreamed of by our forefathers, yet left-wing thought says that this could not happen, that it is necessary for the State to create this, not individuals. That is also why, when the left looks at America, it sees only the negative. As The Economist says:

    For astounding improvements in life expectancy, read population time-bomb. For unparalleled advances in prosperity, read rape of the planet. For eradication of poverty (as once defined) in the industrialised countries, read widening North-South gap. Show us an economic miracle, and we will show you the failure of capitalism.

    Their ire is only further compounded by the failure, commercially, politically, even environmentally, of the great Socialist experiments of the twentieth century.

    Yet the left-wing will claim that they are exercising their great American freedom of speech, and that those who then call them anti-American are in fact going against American ideals. Forgive me, but I put these protestations on the same level as the Watchtower Society's claims of their cherishment of human rights. It cares for them when it can benefit from them, when it can use the issue as a tool to advance its interests, yet when its goals are achieved, it is quite the opposite, and the human rights of those it controls are of no worth at all. It is true that under extreme right-wing regimes, there is also no freedom or rights. What freedom's were there under Nazism, for example? Yet freedom of speech is far more likely to be curtailed under left-wing regimes, because the left tends toward the control of the individual by the state, whereas the right tends against control of the individual by the state.

    This is why I say that to be left-wing is also to be anti-American. America stands for and is built upon ideals that the left refutes. To impose left-wing principles upon America would be to destroy America.

    Expatbrit

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Much as I appreciate the power of freedom and the individual, I believe that sometimes it takes a collective to band together and yell at a powerful individual, saying "hey, you piece of shit, quit raping your mother!!".

    What say you, Expat?

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