114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @ ozziepost: I don't see the problem with letting the bible mean what is says, and say what it means.

    Here are some of the facts about the 144,000 we can know from Scripture:

    Remember, the church is not seen or spoken of in Revelation after Chapter 3.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:

    144,000 ........................................................................... GREAT CROWD

    a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9..................................... 7:9

    b. Servants of God. 7:3............................................................. 7:15

    c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22..........7:14

    d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 ..................................................7:17

    e. Redeemed 14:3 .....................................................................7:14

    f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 .........................................................7:13,14

    g. Standing before the throne 14:1,3......................................./7:9

    h. Before the Lamb 5:8..............................................................7:9

    i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 ...................................................7:15; 11:19

    j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor. 6:16 ..................................7:15

    i. Dressed in white robes 6:11 .................................................7:9

    j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 .................................7:14

    h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; ..............................................19:1

    i. Spirit begotten 7:3 I ..............................................................Jn. 5:1

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    VH7 - Rev. 5:9 doesn't say the 144k male Jewish virgins are from every kindred and nation?

    "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

    The 144K are not introduced until Chapter 7.

    Rev. 14 says they (144K are on MT. Zion.) They hear a voice "from heaven" because they are on earth.

    What makes you think the 144K are in heaven?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Sea Breeze,

    Reading Rev. 5:9 in context through the Watchtower lense

    . (Revelation 5:8-10) The song of the elders and the cherubim.

    Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll,
    And to open its seals; For You were slain,
    And have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

    The 24 elders are symbolic of the 144,000 according to JWs.

    Yes the 144,000 are sealed on the earth in preparation for the tribulation...but the fact that they are on Mount Zion suggests a heavenly post tribulation position.

  • a watcher
    a watcher

    Who cares? Jehovah will appoint as many anointed as He wants to. The actual number is irrelevant.

  • Linda14
    Linda14

    There could be other things to consider to help us understand this 144000.

    The 144k seem to symbolize all that would be saved through Armageddon.

    First, At Rev 7:3, perhaps the wind of Armageddon was withheld to allow for the sealing of God's slaves. Who are these persons? We can easily think that they comprise of all the anointed from the first century till GT. However, that is doubtful. Why?

    The timing of the vision seem to be shortly before Armageddon. So at a time close to Armageddon, the number seen by John to be sealed is 144000. Normally, if we think the 144000 starts to count from the first century, the number John sees shouldn't be 144000 because that number should have reduced by then. But that was the number he saw. So, if we maintain that that number is literal, then the 144000 are literally the number available during the great tribulation, not prior. But what If we say the 144k is being seen as a group? then we are no longer seeing the number as literal.

    Can we then say that these number represents literal number of persons? Rev 9:4 would leave us with a challenge if we see it so. There, the command is to harm others, except those who have the seal of God. That statement reminds us of what happened in rev 7:3. That shows that anyone not having the seal is to be harmed.

    So we can say that these 144000 probably refer to all that will be saved.

    Notice that after mentioning the 144000, the bible went ahead to mention the great crowd. These persons come out of the great tribulation. Could it be, I may be wrong, but could it be that John saw the symbolic 144000 (all persons to be saved thru Armageddon) being sealed for survival, then, at verse 9 of chapter 7, he was shown the same group after they have survived the great tribulation? In other words, rev 7:3-8 is a view prior to great tribulation,then 7:9-17 is the same group after the great tribulation?

  • Linda14
    Linda14

    It is hard to say whom the elders refer to. While they share some similarities with the 144000, but for them to sing before the elders, casts doubt as to whether they are the same group. Rev 14:3

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Excellent point Linda!

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