Ruining the Earth2.0

by peacefulpete 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  peacefulpete

  Few years ago I did a thread that I hope has helped some folks. Maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.

  Did the writer of Rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the Bible's general concerns of morality and sin?

  First, what does the Greek say?

  Secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?

  Third, are there parallels outside Revelation to compare?

  First, the Greek for "ruin" is diaphtheirai it is defined as "morally corrupt, defile, destroy" and is used numerous times in the NT and in the Greek translations of OT. So the Greek can mean "destroy those who are corrupting the earth" which would be perfectly consistent with the general message of the authors of the Bible, but is this the best interpretation consistent with the context?

  Secondly, does the context help? Yes, Rev 19:1,2 using the same word says:

  “After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted/ruined the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her”

  Here in the context of Revelation the word clearly supports the meaning of people morally ruining or corrupting the earth.

  Third, is there parallel usage of the word outside Revelation? Yes. 1 Tim 6:5
  

  These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt/ruined, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.
  

  A notable parallel in application is Gen 6:11 (LXX) which gives as justification for killing everyone in a flood:
  

  11 But the earth was corrupted/ruined before God, and the earth was filled with iniquity.

  The LXX Greek translation here at Genesis again uses the same Greek word we are discussing. This is significant as the author of Revelation was most likely using the LXX and made countless allusions to, and drew heavily from, the OT. Considering the global environmental devastation of an earth-wide flood killing everything outside the ark, I doubt the authors of the Bible thought of their God as concerned about environmental impacts.

  As to the dual use of the same Greek word in Rev 11:18, this called an antanaclasis, a literary device. Often the repeated use of the word only makes sense when the word has a slight shift in meaning.

  Matt 8:22 Let the dead bury the dead,
  

  Roman 12:13b,14 Pursue hospitality and bless those who pursue you.

  1 Cor 3:16,17 ...you yourselves are God’s temple... 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person;....

  The entire book of Revelation directs the writer's anger at religious and political enemies for their moral/religious corruption. Never once does it mention environmental crimes such as cutting forests or salting wells. In fact, the one doing the environmental damage is God.

  Next, it might be of interest that the WT consistently understood Rev 11:18 as describing 'moral corruption' until 1969 with the rise of the modern environmental movement. Was this a case of the WT honestly using the context to understand the author's intent or was it an attempt to keep their message relevant to a hippie generation?

  Many former JWs carry baggage of worry about a couple phrases years after they have separated from the church. I've seen it in person and on this forum. Lingering "what ifs" if you will. This single phrase lifted from context and only recently re-interpreted has haunted some former JWs this way. The power of indoctrination is real and only by confronting the facts straight on will it loosen its grip on us.
  

  
  
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  raymond frantz

  Fellow exjw here, I'm of Greek origin and studied 3 years ancient Greek language in college I also run the JW UPDATES youtube channel.Great research and explanation. This verse always fascinated me but there was something about the Watchtower's explanation that never added up for me.Let me explain.The verb dia-pthiro (=thoroughly + corrupt) is used for both symbolic and physical corruption in the New Testament. SYMBOLIC :διεφθαρμένοι τόν νοῦν, 1 Timothy 6:5, corrupt in the mind, or deprived LITERAL:Luke 12:33 GRK: οὐδὲ σὴς διαφθείρει, describing a physical treasure being destroyed What about Revelation 11:18, is it literal or symbolic? In thus case what is being corrupted defines its meaning. The EARTH is being corrupted.In the book of Revelation 2 words are used for the word earth γῆ=gé (=the physical earth) AND oikoumeni(= the inhabited earth). In this verse the first is used γῆ=gé is used so the corruption is done on the actual Phyisical planet. Now it gets even more strange and interesting, WHO is corrupting the earth, several groups are mentioned are mentioned and excluded in the verse.The nations (=the un-redeemed people)The deadYour servants the prophets The people who revere your name, both great and smallSInce in the book of Revelation the people are divided to those who serve God and those who don't that pretty much covers all human kind Which leaves us with the "THOSE"Who are destroying the PLANET EARTH ,or as the ESV renders it:"for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”I believe them to be Satan and his fallen angels that are thrown down to earth in the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation and they only entities that can harm the planet thoroughly in ways that remains to be seen.
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  waton

  For me , right or wrong, it was not a bed room issue. I always associated the verse with ruining the planet, its life through the potential of an all nuclear war. Bible writers could not anticipate modern developments but the ultimate ruin must be the meaning.
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  enoughisenough

  raymond franz, you mention the last 3.5 year of GT...where do you get that point of view from...I have seen videos where people mention 7 years of tribulation, and I don't know where that comes from either. On another note, I thought of those who ruined the earth as to a physical ruination to make it virtually uninhabitable ( water, air, soil pollution ) which is problematic as we all contribute to that in a way. I surely don't have a safe way to Neutralize the plastic that comes in the grocery packaging that I use; but we know it is detrimental. The thought of Satan and the fallen angels is viable IMO, but so is the moral ruination, and so is the making of earth inhabitable-thinkiing of things I watched about Mr Gates wanting to block the sun and the planned pumping of carbon dioxide down into the ground . If one believes the Bible, it is good to know there is a plan to keep the earth from total ruin...because right now it seems to me it is well on the way to ending life without intervention-an intervention that man doesn't seem capable of. The powers that be do use many scare tactics to try to get to control the rest of the population. The WEF want to reduce carbon footprint, yet they gather in in their fancy planes and cars-rather hypocritical!
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  peacefulpete

  Waton, glad you're not having bed room issues. You can be certain the meaning the author intended is 'corrupted'.

  raymond franz....No. Your logic is flawed. Notice 19:2 used the same word gēn when condemning Rome's corruption/ruining of the earth. Further, your parsing of definitions between oikoumeni (3625) and gen are overly literal and limiting. Oikoumeni simply means land that is inhabited. It does not mean the people apart from the land. Gen and oikoumeni are interchangeable in most contexts. Go consult with your Greek professor. Better yet get yourself a good novel and step away from the apocalypse stuff for a while.
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  waton

  As a witness to the effect of the jewish people's holocaust, of the of area bombings, wholesale rapes, ethnic cleansing, the ongoing aim to deliberately destroy whole clans, tribes, nations, MAD ly, agent orange, The narrow greek word definitions notwithstanding, I would think the intent, the ultimate application of Rev 11:18 to apply to total warfare, the deliberate destruction of life and means of life.

  In nature all activities seem to improve the planet. debris from decaying life makes the best soil and oil. We can with ingenuity and willpower do the same with all our activities.
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  peacefulpete

  waton, By "ultimate application" you mean free reinterpretation unbounded by context, both textually and culturally but formed by modern technology and fears.
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  raymond frantz

  @enoughisenough ,the 7 year period is based on Daniel 9:27 that describes the final week, the seven-year tribulation period: “[A ruler](=the Antichrist) will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Jesus refers to this passage in Matthew 24:15. The ruler who confirms the covenant and then sets up the abomination is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. According to Daniel 9:27, the beast’s covenant will be for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 ½ years into the tribulation), the beast will break the covenant, putting a stop to the Jewish sacrifices. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 ½ years (the second half of the tribulation).

  This is not a jw teaching but that's what most mainstream Christian escatologists believe today. I hope that helps...
• 

  raymond frantz

  @ peacefulpete

  This is a forum, you post your diatribe and people are allowed to commend on it. Maybe a little humility won't go amiss, if you don't like people challenging your thesis do not post.

  You will find me on jw updates channel on a weekly basis reading from original Greek Koini and commenting on it, I'm pretty sure you are proficient enough to do the same.

  By the way, can you also explain to me how the word dia-pthiro is used also in the book of Revelation to describe destroyed ships? Are they destroyed morally?

  Revelation 8:9

  "A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed(=diapthiro)
  
• 

  Vidqun

  Enough, many commentators believe the great tribulation is to be seven years. Different ways to work it out. I personally go for 3 1/2 (trumpet blasts) + 3 1/2 (plagues) = 7 years. This comes from time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years = 42 months, etc. I use the days of Daniel as confirmation. Some derive it from the last week of the seventy weeks (of years) of Daniel (9:24-27), but I disagree with such an interpretation. I view the latter as a unit.

  Raymond, I appreciate your reminder of Rev. 8:9 but disagree with your conclusion. Certainly God’s wrath is directed at Satan and his demons. But in this instance he is referring to people. Man has indeed reached a point where he can bring literal ruin to the earth. And with his genetic manipulation, he can also change (and ruin) life. He is indeed now capable of completely “ruining the earth,” as well as everything on it. As you might have noticed, the clock of the Atomic Scientists is now at 90 seconds to midnight. Unfortunately, that’s where we are heading, unless God puts a stop to it.

  I agree Pete, context is important. I understand it to mean moral degradation as well as physical destruction. As you mentioned, the same word is used in the LXX at Gen. 6:11. The word here points to immorality as well as violence. It reminds one of present conditions. But what about the immediate context of Rev. 11:18? The angel emphasizes the importance of the seventh trumpet blast:

  5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven

  6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
  

  7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets (Rev. 10:5-7 ESV).
  

  What is the mystery or sacred secret of God all about?

  15And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever (Rev. 11:15).[Cursive script added.]

  Legally, the world has now become the property of God and His Son, to be incorporated in the kingdom. From this point onwards obedience and subservience to the kingdom would be essential for survival. But how do the majority of survivors of the six trumpet blasts respond and with what result? They would take on God and His Christ. We know the end result:

  18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth (Rev. 11:18; cf. Ps. 2:6-9; Rev. 9:20, 21).