put youir thinking caps on.

by zeb 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Fisherman

  not the prophetic mythical version

  Fin, 539 is a historical date. There is nothing mythical about it nor is the 70 years of Babylonian captivity mystical.
  
  
• 

  shepherdless

  Yes, Fisherman, 539 BC as the fall of Babylon is a historical date, that can be demonstrated in multiple independent ways.

  Even Bishop Ushher, writing in 1658 was close. (He thought it was 538 BC, probably because of the way Ptolomy's Canon works, but that is a discussion for another day.) Bishop Ushher was also puzzled why there was only a gap of 66 (or in his view 67) years between Nebuchadnezzar coming to the throne in 605 BC and the fall of Babylon. He describes it as "almost 70 years".

  There is another way to look at it, in my view, and I mentioned this on another thread. You can easily interpret the passages of Jeremiah as the 70 years starting before Nebuchadnezzar became king. He was clearly in charge of the army and waging war (including winning the battle of Carchemish) before his father died. If you think that that is inconsistent with Jeremiah 25:9, because it refers to "King Nebuchadnezzar", and so he must already be king, then check Jeremiah 27:1-6, where he is also referred to as "King Nebuchadnezzar" at a period of time that clearly preceded him being king.
• 

  shepherdless

  Just for lurkers, I better add that Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (see 2 Kings 25:8). That means that the bible tells us that Jerusalem fell in 586 or 587 BC (depending on an interpretation issue).

  i know most of you know that already, but I thought I would spell it out. Watchtower tries to argue that they don't care that secular history says Jerusalem fell in 587 BC because the bible says different. They are wrong; the bible agrees with secular history and nobody agrees with Watchtower.
• 

  Finkelstein

  Fin, 539 is a historical date

  Yes I'm quite aware of that, I was referring to the supposed 70 years of desolation told by the prophet Daniel.

  The real evidence of the desolation was actually 586 BCE - 539 BCE = 47 years
  
• 

  Fisherman

  Gven the historical date 539, without any other obfuscation:

  Since the Jews returned to Jerusalem circa 537, being in captivity 70 years,

  537 -70 = 607

  This isn't because the wt says as you can see.
• 

  Fisherman

  The land had to pay back its Sabbaths, resting 70 years not 47.
• 

  Finkelstein

  Since the Jews returned to Jerusalem circa 537

  Where and what information did acquire to derive it was two years later ?
  

  With archeological findings and the bible itself, the final destruction of Jerusalem did occur in 586 , so prior to 586 one can not say the land was laid desolate.
• 

  shepherdless

  Fisherman: Since the Jews returned to Jerusalem circa 537...

  1. As Finkelstein mentions, there is no evidence to support that 2 year adjustment. It is a fudge by Watchtower, to make its numerology work.

  2. The Bible clearly indicates 70 years ends when Babylon falls, not when Jews return to Jerusalem: see Jer 25:12.
  
  

  Fisherman: ...being in captivity 70 years...

  Bible does NOT say Jews would be in captivity for 70 years. Watchtower tricks you into thinking the Bible says that. See what Bible actually says at Jer 25: 8-11. Bible says the nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years (Jer 25:11). That service (and hence the 70 years) had began by the beginning of Jehoakim's reign (see Jer 27:1-6), and Judah had become a vassal state of Babylon. Jeremiah warned that rebelling against Babylon would only make the subjugation worse (Jer 27:8-22). But Jews listened to a false prophet instead (Jer 28), and as a result Jerusalem is destroyed.

  If there was any doubt about the 70 years beginning before the fall of Jerusalem, I think that doubt is removed by Jeremiah 29, where a letter is sent to the earlier exiles in Babylon (ex-King Jeconiah and his entourage) by a courier under instruction of King Zedekiah. Zedekiah sending the letter indicates he must have been still alive at that point, and Jerusalem had not fallen. The letter specifically mentions the 70 years (Jer 29:10) and indicates the 70 years are already underway.

  
  
• 

  DNCall

  Fisherman: As Finkelstein and Wikipedia point out above, Babylon replaced Assyria as the world power at the Battle of Harran in 609 BCE. Babylon was defeated 70 years later in 539 BCE. This is the 70 years to which Jeremiah refers. The paying off of sabbaths and desolation of Judah mentioned elsewhere in the Bible is conflated with Jeremiah 25 by Watchtower to suggest a 70-year desolation. This is a fabrication and has no place in fact or history.
• 

  Fisherman

  Compare Jeremiah 29:10 with Isaiah 50:1.

  Isaiah 50:1 is prophetic, the Jews not in exile yet. Your referenced scripture is about the completion of 70 and does not establish its start, and its interpretation must also reconcile with 539-70.

  Your belief depends upon interpretation but 607 depends upon 539. So unless you can debunk 539, 607 makes sense to me.