Does maths prove the bible is wrong?

by joey jojo 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  joey jojo

  There might be a few that find this post boring, because, you know - its maths.

  I like maths but Im not a mathematician or condsider myself any type of expert on the subject.

  There is a branch of maths called Propositional Logic that is used widely in computers and computer programming that allows computers to make decisions based on certain conditions.

  For example: IF a condition exists, THEN do something.

  LIke: IF the A button is pressed, THEN the letter A will appear on the screen. Or, IF x = 1, THEN DO something else.

  We use propositional logic intuitively in our everyday lives. IF it is NOT raining AND IF it is 4PM, THEN I will go for a walk.

  The really intersting thing about this type of maths is that we can take an everyday statement and turn it into a measurable maths problem to determine if it is a true or false statement by using truth tables.

  One type of statement is called a Universal Statement, these types are always true in every instance. It doesnt matter what proof you have, these statements will always be true. In order to prove that a Universal Statement is actually false, you only have to provide a single contradiction.

  For example, if I say that 'every time I play golf - it rains', I have just made a Universal Statement. If someone plays golf with me and it does not rain - just once, the statement I made cannot be true.

  Apologies for this back story about propositional logic but I thought it might be interesting to apply it to the bible.

  There are a lot of Universal Statements about God. Heres one: God cannot lie.

  So, using propostional logic, we could write this as: IF God cannot lie, AND IF the bible is Gods word, THEN the bible cannot contain any factual errors.

  Now, all we have to do is find just one single comment in the bible that is not true and we have just proved that the Universal Statement, 'God cannot lie' is false.

  Gen 1:11: God creates vegetation on day 3. The sun isnt created until day 4. This statement, taken at face value cannot be true. That sounds like a contradiction to me.
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  slimboyfat

  Depends how long a day was, or how near the end of the third day God created plants, because plants could presumably have survived a few initial hours without sunlight. Maybe it’s even in some sense better for the plants to install them first then turn on the sunlight rather than the other way round, again, providing there isn’t a long period in between.
  
  It’s also worth considering that ancient people in general knew that plants need sunlight too, as did presumably the people who wrote, selected, and preserved the words of Genesis as scripture. It’s unlikely that they did so in ignorance of the fact that plants need sunlight. So whatever the reason is for the text being ordered the way it is, an explanation that presumes ancient people made some kind of stupid scientific mistake here is pretty unlikely.
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  joey jojo

  slimboyfat
  an explanation that presumes ancient people made some kind of stupid scientific mistake here is pretty unlikely.

  Ok, how about, light being created before the sun or stars? Have you ever gone outside on a truly dark night. You cannot see your hand in front of your face. Light does not exist without a source like a star. It is not a separate entity.

  We are still only in Gen chapter 1.
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  slimboyfat

  I don’t know, but again isn’t it safe to assume that ancient people also realised that light comes from the sun and stars? Even if they didn’t know as much about the sun and stars as we do, they surely knew that’s where light comes from. The only other sources they may have been familiar with were perhaps fire and some living things that glow in the dark. Are there any other natural sources of light? I can’t think. So on the hypothesis that Genesis is the work of ancient people without inspiration from God, what did they think they were saying by putting the creation of light before the creation of the sun and stars?
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  Duran

  Gen 1:11: God creates vegetation on day 3. The sun isnt created until day 4. This statement, taken at face value cannot be true. That sounds like a contradiction to me.

  [1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.3 And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.]

  [9 Then God said: “Let the waters under the heavens be collected together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, but the collecting of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so. 12 And the earth began to produce grass, seed-bearing plants and trees yielding fruit along with seed, according to their kinds. Then God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 Then God said: “Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night, and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years. 15 They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God went on to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. 17 Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth 18 and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.]

  The Hebrew word rendered “make” in Ge 1 verse 16 is not the same as the word for “create” used in Genesis 1:1, 21, 27 chapter 1, verses 1, 21, and 27. “The heavens” that included the luminaries were created long before the “first day” even began. But their light did not reach the surface of the earth. On the first day, “there came to be light” because diffused light penetrated the cloud layers and became visible on the earth. The rotating earth thus began to have alternating day and night. (Genesis 1:1-3, 5) The sources of that light still remained invisible from the earth. During the fourth creative period, however, a notable change took place. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) “God proceeded to make” them in that they could now be seen from the earth.
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  joey jojo

  The Hebrew word rendered “make” in Ge 1 verse 16 is not the same as the word for “create” used in Genesis 1:1, 21, 27 chapter 1, verses 1, 21, and 27. “The heavens” that included the luminaries were created long before the “first day” even began. But their light did not reach the surface of the earth. On the first day, “there came to be light” because diffused light penetrated the cloud layers and became visible on the earth. The rotating earth thus began to have alternating day and night. (Genesis 1:1-3, 5) The sources of that light still remained invisible from the earth. During the fourth creative period, however, a notable change took place. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) “God proceeded to make” them in that they could now be seen from the earth.

  Wherever this is copied and pasted from, it contains a lot of assumptions. There are a lot of different words used in Genesis 1 to describe God making things: 'brought forth', 'created', 'made', 'let there be'. Which should we use? Why does one have prededence over another, except to 'prove' some convoluted speculation that attempts to convey to the audience what the writer really means, because he is incapable of describing it clearly in the first place?

  Nowhere does it say that the stars and moon and sun were made before the first day. The hebrew word for 'heavens' in Gen 1:1 is the same word used to describe the place where birds fly later on. Ive never seen a bird make it into space.

  Gods word should be clear and concise. If it touches on scientific topics, it should be right every time without question. The only reason apologists revise the scriptures to bring them into line with scientific discoveries is because they have no choice.
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  no-zombie

  While I understand logic based reasoning reasonably well, the problem most people fall into is when they make their statements too open.

  For example, we have the common logic statement that goes like ... as most serial killers play violent video games, there is a high chance that playing violent video games will turn you into a multiple murderer.

  However, we all know in reality that there are other factors behind every supposed causality concept, like this.
  

  Thus trying to boil God or the Bible down into a simple logic based diagram, will not be that helpful to the reader, as the truth of a matter often is more nuanced ... just as it would be, if we tried to analyses you and your life in the same way.
  
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  Ultimate Axiom

  Who says it’s impossible for God to lie? Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matt 19:26).
  God also told Abraham, “I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. Look up at the heavens and count the stars - if indeed you can count them. So shall your offspring be,” (Gen 13:16 and Gen 15:5). Not only did that not happen (so he lied), it is not even possible. The earth could not support thousands of trillions of people, in fact you couldn’t even fit that number of people on the planet, not even if you packed them together like sardines.
  
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  Earnest

  Since we are discussing mathematics I should tell you about one of my favourite clerics, John Colenso, the first Bishop of Natal, 1853-1883. Prior to becoming a rector (in 1846) he had studied at Cambridge, got a first class in mathematics, had written manuals on algebra (1841) and arithmetic (1843), and had taught maths at Harrow and Cambridge. After he was appointed Bishop of Natal, which was then a British colony, he went over there, published the first Zulu grammar and English/Zulu dictionary, and established a missionary station.

  His African students there asked him questions about Noah's Ark, the Flood, the crossing of the Red Sea, the Exodus etc which caused him to re-examine the Pentateuch and the book of Joshua. Being a mathematician he looked at the number of Israelites at the time of the Exodus and asked very pertinent questions whether this was possible, finally writing some volumes on The Pentateuch and Book of Joshua Critically Examined. Needless to say this created a bit of a scandal in England and you can read more about him here, but his work on the Pentateuch (linked above) is still well worth reading.
  
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  liam

  God also told Abraham, “I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth,

  
  

  Not only did that not happen (so he lied), it is not even possible. The earth could not support thousands of trillions of people,

  Actually He didn’t lie, he was telling the truth

  God told Abraham; “I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth,

  If someone tells you; “I’m going make your offspring like the dust of the earth.

  You don’t assume you are going to have a HUGE family.

  Instead as the saying goes, “For dust you are and to dust you will return” Genesis 3:19

  According to jewishagency.org the jewish-population is about 15-7-million-worldwide as of 2023

  Compared to other races, they are a speck of dust.

  So God did tell the truth! In fact, Jehovah made sure they didn’t grow for the past 6000 according to the Bible’s Timetable. Makes you wonder why everybody is always trying to exterminate them.

  To dust you will become.
  

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWPrEZa9o4