by StinkyPantz 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Abaddon:
you're not really considering the FACT that innocent people die as a result of judicial homocide.
First of all, the question I posed had nothing to do with an innocent individual. That's another issue.
be sure that the opinion you have is actually one you REALLY feel, rather than one you lipsynch due to conditioning.
I believe, if you'll re-read my post, you'll notice I didn't give an opinion. I merely posed a question, which, incidentally, with all that you said, you did not answer.
So, because I don't deliniate possible alternatives to judicial homocide, you can ignore all the issues that indicate judicial homocide is certain to take life in error? And just ask a question which is answered by the legal systems of most of the rest of the World? You ask what would be done; I say this is disingenous, as you must know the other alternatives.
To eliminate this possible gap in your knowledge, please look here;
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=209&scid=23
... as you're apparently unaware of alternatives (or want to ask 'what would you do in x situation' to avoid engaging with the problems with the death penalty), the entire website http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/index.php might be of interest to you.
And again, I say you're welcome to support the death penalty despite the fact it unavoidably kills innocent people (in the name of justice), but unless you are willing to die for a crime you did not commit, I cannot take any such stance seriously.
Cowhand-
Please gives sources for your claims.
Teejay-
I hope you don't believe . . . that every single person who’s been executed were in fact guilty.
No I do not, just like I don't believe that every guilty murderer has spent time in jail.
-----------
Why has this old thread been resurrected instead of starting a new one?
Why has this old thread been resurrected instead of starting a new one?
Because we can.
I haven't read this thread because the debate about the death penalty is one of those things ppl will never agree on. I used to be pro capital punishment, and I still think that primarily its aquestion of what type of punishment the society in question prefers. Howeve I have to say that the death penalty as it is currently administered in the US is neither an effective deterrent or a factor in rehabilitation which is what the criminal justice system should primarily be about.
stinkypantz - mine were not claims, they were recent news items and well publicised.
Societies ideas as to whether it is better that guilty people should go free than that the innocent should be punished has been variable over the years and will continue to be.
I have been witness to a person being convicted of murder on a balance of probability. Fortunately his appeal was eventually upheld.
No I do not, just like I don't believe that every guilty murderer has spent time in jail. -- StinkyPantz
Of course not, but it's hard to see how that reality plays into this discussion about capital punishment.
It's surprising that you have sidestepped direct questions asked you, Abaddon. It seems to me you quietly admit that conceeding that the death penalty may be applicable in cases of crimes that are considered extaordinary (like some of the cases presented in this thread) will weaken your case. Perhaps you should draw a line between the death penalty being applicable for certain crimes (and/or strings of crimes commited by the same person), and the the way the State enforces that. And perhaps, that line os thin some.
hurt;
My opinion? What does my opinion have to do with whether judicial homocide is 'right' or not?
I can present facts that show the death penalty unavoidable results in innocent people being put to death in the name of justice. This is different from innocent people dying as a result of criminal activity.
I can point out that by having a death penalty the USA has more in common with countries with poor human rights records, non-democratic governments, even centres of terrorism (according to George W.), and ask how Americans feel about this.
I can point to how the death sentence seems to be considered as acceptable or unacceptable according to the enculturation of a person rather than any other issue.
I can show that countries without death penalties do not have massive problems due to this. I can even (thanks Jan) post stats to correct incorrect figures given earlier by other posters;
I can show that people in the USA are considering altenatives, like no-parole life sentences.
I can comment that in x or y circumstance, I would want revenge, but that I wouldn't kid myself it was justice.
I can say that if killing is wrong, killing is wrong.
I find people saying 'but what would you do/think', when they have not addressed the above just avoidance.
We all know cognitive dissonance.
It's nice to think that you are safer walking the streets because they kill a few people.
It's not nice to think that this is an ineffective deterant, that it unavoidably results in error, and that countries without the death penalty are, on average, far far safer.
It's not nice to wonder what it is that makes Americans kill each other five times more often than Europeans if it's not the amount of guns, the laws on gun control, or mass media fear epidemics causing it. God knows no Americans have even tried to answer that one. An obvious infereance is that if murder happens five times more often, it's not surprising people are less worried about judicial killing.
For years I though terrorists, child murderers, serial killers and a few other catagories might be worthy of execution if there was incontravertable evidence. But the fact that if killing is wrong, killing is wrong, and the fact killing them doesn't make any difference AND will kill innocents in the name of justice has made me change my stance, as I simply cannot justify judicial homocide to myself.
Again, if it was me and mine I'd wade through the €uckers blood if I could. But, that's revenge, not justice.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/927211.asp?0sl=-32
12 freed after 4 years in Texas jail Drug convictions based on word of one officer
Twelve prisoners convicted on the testimony of a discredited officer were released Monday, nearly four years after they and dozens of other people were arrested on drug charges.
?The most devious, non-responsive witness this court has witnessed in 25 years on the bench in Texas.?
Thirty-eight people were convicted after a 1999 sweep that capped an 18-month undercover operation. Chapman, a retired state district judge from Dallas who was appointed to oversee the case, recommended that all 38 convictions be overturned and that new trials be ordered, but a special prosecutor has said there will be no new trials.
In addition to the 12 people whom Chapman freed, two others were part of the hearing Monday but remained in custody for other reasons. The rest of the 38 people who were convicted have already been paroled or released on probation.
The convictions came on the uncorroborated word of undercover drug agent Tom Coleman of the Swisher County Sheriff’s Department, who is now under indictment on perjury charges, or they accepted plea agreements out of fear of long prison terms.
“What’s shocking is it was legal for there to be no corroboration,” Gupta said.
The case has brought national attention to this community of 5,000 people, and several investigations have been launched.
RACE A FACTOR?
Civil rights advocates have called the arrests racially motivated. Of the 46 people arrested in the small Panhandle town, 39 were black. Coleman is white.
Coleman claimed that that he bought drugs from the defendants, but he worked alone and used no audio or video surveillance. No drugs were found during the arrests, and little or no corroborating evidence was introduced in court.
Thirteen of the defendants — 12 of them black and one of them Latino — were taken from the Swisher County Jail to the county courthouse, where Chapman freed 12 of them on personal recognizance bonds while their cases are on appeal.
SP,
This is why I'm against capital punnishment
